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In-state athletic budgets..

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Humdinger
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Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:50 pm

ISUBU wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 10:33 am
Never read that book, but Notre Dame is the university it is due to football.
OT, but heard a 'brow raising stat yesterday while flipping through sports radio. Don't quote me verbatim but if it's not totally accurate it's close.
In the last 20 years Notre Dame is 1-18 or 1-19, something like that, against (at the time of game) Top 5 teams.
GhostofMBA
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Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:28 pm

ChiRedbirdfan wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:18 pm
Jon99 wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 9:09 am
I also find it interesting that our athletic budget is more than WIU and EIU combined

Why is that interesting? ISU athletics , like EIU and WIU athletics, funds its operations predominantly via subsidy from the students and university verses being mostly or fully independent of the university. ISU athletic subsidy amount is 69 percent and EIU and wiu are 71 and 69 percent respectively. Given we have more than their enrollments combined it makes sense we have more than their athletic athletic department revenue combined
Jon, I like your enthusiasm. We spend twice as much as those two universities but are we really that much more ahead in the "revenue generating" sports prestige? One could argue MBB, but even that is dwindling due to the 1 bid league status the last few years of the MVC, and we have not went dancing in quite a while.

How are you getting that ISU is the #2 public in Illinois? UIC passed up ISU quite a while ago on the USNW. Currently, UIC is 132 and ISU is 197. And I just do not see that trend reversing. ISU was the 2nd public when I was there. But that was 12 years ago. I believe ISU got into the low 140's during that time. Looks like a slide of ~50 spots while UIC has risen.
Jon99
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Tue Sep 24, 2019 10:16 pm

Well first off, ISU hasn’t really slidden 50 spots, I think a fair assessment to say we have improved..

Secondly, when I said #2, I was counting the UofI system as one.. and now this is just my opinion, but I think ISU is much closer to UIC than the rankings suggest when it comes to undergrad.. but they have research and areas of studies we don’t have.. and it’s still mostly a commuter school, completely different feel that ISU.. if a school in the state ever reaches AAC level, it will be ISU
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Redbirdwarrior
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Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:35 pm

Are we having this ridiculous FBS argument again? Cmon guys. We don't have an FBS stadium, don't have FBS draw, FBS football money and certainly don't have the track record of consistent success at the FCS level.

The difference between FCS and 65+ FBS programs is, at best, a toss up. Is is possible to get into CUSA? Sure. Is it possible to win a national football title out of CUSA or any equivalent conference? UCF proved it is not. Let's say we DID get into CUSA. How many league titles would we have to win to make the jump to the Big 12? 10? 15? How many years before we compete for that title consistently? 15? 20? Now, how many years before The Power 5 branch off and create yet another level of college football on top of FBS? I'd say 10. So we'd be right back where we are now 10 years from now regardless.
Jon99
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Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:05 pm

Has anyone said the goal is to win a national title or even get into the B12? Of course not...

But I think a 20 year goal of being in the AAC is attainable, and the cost associated with that would be inline with the current goals of the school as a whole. We already have an athletic budget that's close to the average of MAC teams, so its not like its a great jump. You going to tell me fricken NIU can do it and we can't??

We just need the administration to have a vision and realize a move to FBS would be good for the entire university.
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Total Red
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Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:24 am

Jon99 wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:05 pm
You going to tell me fricken NIU can do it and we can't??
It's not a matter of whether we can do it it's a matter of whether we want to. The FBS issue gets raised on the football board frequently. It's the one place it can find some traction. We have a few dozen regular posters and a rotating few hundred that drop in to look. Amongst the RBF.net football group you can say that FBS football is bigger and better and should therefore become a project for the university to work on and you'll get some agreement. Try taking it up with all other parts of Redbird Nation. (Redbird Nation - current students, alumni, faculty, staff, administration and residents of B/N or other communities with a modest interest in the affairs of the Illinois State University). Ask all of those people if they think it's important for the university to invest time, effort and money into pursuing FBS football. I think you'll find that for most of them it is a low to non-existent priority.

WHEN WE TALK ABOUT FBS FOOTBALL WE USE IT AS A DEFINITION OF SUCCESS THAT JUST ISN'T VALID WHEN IT COMES TO THE INTERESTS AND CONCERNS OF THE MAJORITY OF REDBIRD NATION.

And then we sit around and wonder why it has never happened and we blame past administrations that have consistently reflected the collective desires (or lack thereof) of their constituencies.

You know NIU never asked their students if they wanted FBS football. Their football tickets are a forced sale embedded in the athletic fee inside the general fee. I wonder if they had a referendum on whether they would like to continue with FBS football or have their fees lowered if they wouldn't opt for lower fees.
Jon99
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Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:52 am

Total Red wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:24 am
Jon99 wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:05 pm
You going to tell me fricken NIU can do it and we can't??
It's not a matter of whether we can do it it's a matter of whether we want to. The FBS issue gets raised on the football board frequently. It's the one place it can find some traction. We have a few dozen regular posters and a rotating few hundred that drop in to look. Amongst the RBF.net football group you can say that FBS football is bigger and better and should therefore become a project for the university to work on and you'll get some agreement. Try taking it up with all other parts of Redbird Nation. (Redbird Nation - current students, alumni, faculty, staff, administration and residents of B/N or other communities with a modest interest in the affairs of the Illinois State University). Ask all of those people if they think it's important for the university to invest time, effort and money into pursuing FBS football. I think you'll find that for most of them it is a low to non-existent priority.

WHEN WE TALK ABOUT FBS FOOTBALL WE USE IT AS A DEFINITION OF SUCCESS THAT JUST ISN'T VALID WHEN IT COMES TO THE INTERESTS AND CONCERNS OF THE MAJORITY OF REDBIRD NATION.

And then we sit around and wonder why it has never happened and we blame past administrations that have consistently reflected the collective desires (or lack thereof) of their constituencies.

You know NIU never asked their students if they wanted FBS football. Their football tickets are a forced sale embedded in the athletic fee inside the general fee. I wonder if they had a referendum on whether they would like to continue with FBS football or have their fees lowered if they wouldn't opt for lower fees.
Is NIU spending that much more on football than we are?
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Redbirdwarrior
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Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:47 am

Jon99 wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:05 pm
Has anyone said the goal is to win a national title or even get into the B12? Of course not...

But I think a 20 year goal of being in the AAC is attainable, and the cost associated with that would be inline with the current goals of the school as a whole. We already have an athletic budget that's close to the average of MAC teams, so its not like its a great jump. You going to tell me fricken NIU can do it and we can't??

We just need the administration to have a vision and realize a move to FBS would be good for the entire university.
It is attainable now. But to what end? Why? So we can travel further and play in 35,000 seat stadiums with 8000 people in them against the exact same level of competition we are playing now at twice the cost with an equal chance of national relevance that we have right now. So we can do away with rivalries against SIU, EIU, UNI, WIU in favor of playing East Carolina and Tulane for the right to play against Western Michigan in the Quest Diagnostics Whogivesashit Bowl from Billings Montana?

If your ULTIMATE 20 year goal with football is limited to getting into a conference that, pound for pound, would get its ass kicked by the MVFC every year, you need to seriously ask yourself why.
Jon99
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Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:04 am

Houston
Memphis
SMU
Tulane
Central Florida
Cincinnati
ECU
Tulsa
South Florida
Temple
Navy

Now which of these schools would ISU, SIU and and UNI kick the crap out of??? Good God , are you serious????
TheTruth
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Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:25 am

If you're not moving forward, you're moving backward and if you're not trying to realize your full potential you're failing. I love how all the trolls come out and talk shit about Illinois State every time the FBS issue comes up. Illinois State University should constantly be looking to move their football program forward just as it should be doing with any of its academic programs. This status quo/half assed stance that the university has taken towards athletics (especially football) sends a terrible message to the university community and quite frankly runs counter to what a university should stand for.
Reassign Larry Lyons!
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Total Red
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Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:06 pm

Jon99 wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:52 am

Is NIU spending that much more on football than we are?
They may not be spending a lot more on a daily basis but they aren't getting a lot more either.***

Right now our football facilities are below those of top shelf FCS programs. To be competitive in the FBS we would need a giant infusion of cash. You could argue that in some ways we are in a better position to make that happen than NIU. We have a larger enrollment so we have a faster growing alumni base. We aren't Ivy League or even Big 10 when it comes to fundraising but we have our share of affluent alumni and they aren't stingy. The Redefining Normal campaign exceeded the goal. The current Redbirds Rising campaign has exceeded the goal. So maybe our affluent alumni are more interested in supporting academics and maybe some of them would rather donate to feed starving children than to raise the profile of a football program. Whatever. If we find a Phil Knight or T. Boone Pickens it will be a game-changer for us but until then we will have to deal with the situation as it is.

What is that situation? Almost the same as it was when I arrived here in the late 70's. This is first and foremost a basketball school. Oh sure, we'll fill the stadium for Family weekend. That's parents spending time with their kids. They don't know about or care about the football team. They'll start leaving after halftime regardless of how the game is going. If you want to know what's important around here start with RBF.net. There's far more activity on the basketball board. I'll the bet the average student here is more likely to correctly identify Joe Hein as a former basketball player than to correctly identify Spencer Schnell as a former football player. Hein has definitely rec'd more mentions on RBF. Maybe you could go back even further but I blame it all on Doug Collins and then the winning teams that followed.

So given the inclination towards basketball the athletic administration had a decision to make in the early 80's. MAC or Missouri Valley. Let's see, a couple of years before that decision was made Indiana St. played for the NCAA National Championship in basketball. Since that time Wichita St. made the final four as a member of the Valley and was also a #1 seed. More recently Loyola was in the Final Four. The MAC? No. So clearly if you were looking for an obtainable conference that would meet the desires of our primarily basketball fanbase the Valley was the choice. Maybe that has eroded since then and we can review our current situation but I don't think you can make a credible argument that we had a better choice available at that time and maybe not now.

So is the MAC better now? Well it still isn't much of a basketball conference and I don't think it's much more than a toss up on the football side either.*** NIU went to the Orange Bowl. That is impressive. Score one Huskies. But what about the compromises that went into making that happen? NIU will never play in a National Championship game - we did. NIU will play 40% of their 5 game home schedule on chilly late November Tuesday nights. Minus one (at least). In addition - in order to pursue FBS football NIU was forced to have their Men's basketball team play in a fieldhouse that was smaller and less impressive than Horton until 2002. That would never fly here and it didn't. Different priorities reflected by different schools.

Lots of fans don't want to admit it but we have an athletic administration that has reflected our interests and our willingness to support. We support football at the FCS level. Go Birds!
Humdinger
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Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:15 pm

Redbirdwarrior wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:47 am
...the Quest Diagnostics Whogivesashit Bowl from Billings Montana?
Oh yeah. My favorite bowl game.
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Redbirdwarrior
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Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:18 pm

Jon99 wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:04 am
Houston
Memphis
SMU
Tulane
Central Florida
Cincinnati
ECU
Tulsa
South Florida
Temple
Navy

Now which of these schools would ISU, SIU and and UNI kick the crap out of??? Good God , are you serious????
NDSU beats every one of them except UCF virtually every time.
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Redbirdwarrior
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Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:22 pm

Total Red wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:06 pm
Jon99 wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:52 am

Is NIU spending that much more on football than we are?
They may not be spending a lot more on a daily basis but they aren't getting a lot more either.***

Right now our football facilities are below those of top shelf FCS programs. To be competitive in the FBS we would need a giant infusion of cash. You could argue that in some ways we are in a better position to make that happen than NIU. We have a larger enrollment so we have a faster growing alumni base. We aren't Ivy League or even Big 10 when it comes to fundraising but we have our share of affluent alumni and they aren't stingy. The Redefining Normal campaign exceeded the goal. The current Redbirds Rising campaign has exceeded the goal. So maybe our affluent alumni are more interested in supporting academics and maybe some of them would rather donate to feed starving children than to raise the profile of a football program. Whatever. If we find a Phil Knight or T. Boone Pickens it will be a game-changer for us but until then we will have to deal with the situation as it is.

What is that situation? Almost the same as it was when I arrived here in the late 70's. This is first and foremost a basketball school. Oh sure, we'll fill the stadium for Family weekend. That's parents spending time with their kids. They don't know about or care about the football team. They'll start leaving after halftime regardless of how the game is going. If you want to know what's important around here start with RBF.net. There's far more activity on the basketball board. I'll the bet the average student here is more likely to correctly identify Joe Hein as a former basketball player than to correctly identify Spencer Schnell as a former football player. Hein has definitely rec'd more mentions on RBF. Maybe you could go back even further but I blame it all on Doug Collins and then the winning teams that followed.

So given the inclination towards basketball the athletic administration had a decision to make in the early 80's. MAC or Missouri Valley. Let's see, a couple of years before that decision was made Indiana St. played for the NCAA National Championship in basketball. Since that time Wichita St. made the final four as a member of the Valley and was also a #1 seed. More recently Loyola was in the Final Four. The MAC? No. So clearly if you were looking for an obtainable conference that would meet the desires of our primarily basketball fanbase the Valley was the choice. Maybe that has eroded since then and we can review our current situation but I don't think you can make a credible argument that we had a better choice available at that time and maybe not now.

So is the MAC better now? Well it still isn't much of a basketball conference and I don't think it's much more than a toss up on the football side either.*** NIU went to the Orange Bowl. That is impressive. Score one Huskies. But what about the compromises that went into making that happen? NIU will never play in a National Championship game - we did. NIU will play 40% of their 5 game home schedule on chilly late November Tuesday nights. Minus one (at least). In addition - in order to pursue FBS football NIU was forced to have their Men's basketball team play in a fieldhouse that was smaller and less impressive than Horton until 2002. That would never fly here and it didn't. Different priorities reflected by different schools.

Lots of fans don't want to admit it but we have an athletic administration that has reflected our interests and our willingness to support. We support football at the FCS level. Go Birds!
I believe it was Matt Hein...
Humdinger
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Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:36 pm

I'll tell ya, TotalRed, you're putting forth honest level-headed commentary about the FBS argument. It's tough to hear but it's the truth.

Not saying going FBS is bad. It's good! But...if we end up in a conference affiliation that does not allow us to create the revenue to support the FBS advance and staying FBS - it does us no good whatsoever. Unless we have a big shark who's willing to suffer the financial hit until we find our way to an affiliation that makes us a solid $$ generator.

Until we get another Bowman&Zenger combo leading a charge it just flat out WILL NOT HAPPEN. EVER. Currently, we should absolutely aspire to be THE best FCS program in the land and see where that will lead us.

In saying that, TotalRed, it's very disappointing that we still have...what appears to be...little to no progress on an IPF.
Humdinger
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Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:37 pm

Redbirdwarrior wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:22 pm
I believe it was Matt Hein...
No. He was referring to Joe. That was the point.
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Total Red
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Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:52 pm

Redbirdwarrior wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:22 pm
Total Red wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:06 pm


There's far more activity on the basketball board. I'll the bet the average student here is more likely to correctly identify Joe Hein as a former basketball player than to correctly identify Spencer Schnell as a former football player. Hein has definitely rec'd more mentions on RBF. Maybe you could go back even further but I blame it all on Doug Collins and then the winning teams that followed.



I believe it was Matt Hein...
Well it could have been either but you're right I was aiming for Matt Hein. That's what I get for trying to come up with a basketball name during football season.
Humdinger
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Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:53 pm

Total Red wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:52 pm
Redbirdwarrior wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:22 pm
Total Red wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:06 pm


There's far more activity on the basketball board. I'll the bet the average student here is more likely to correctly identify Joe Hein as a former basketball player than to correctly identify Spencer Schnell as a former football player. Hein has definitely rec'd more mentions on RBF. Maybe you could go back even further but I blame it all on Doug Collins and then the winning teams that followed.



I believe it was Matt Hein...
Well it could have been either but you're right I was aiming for Matt Hein. That's what I get for trying to come up with a basketball name during football season.
My apologies. Thought you WERE referring to Joe.
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Total Red
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Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:54 pm

Humdinger wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:36 pm

Not saying going FBS is bad. It's good! But...if we end up in a conference affiliation that does not allow us to create the revenue to support the FBS advance and staying FBS - it does us no good whatsoever. Unless we have a big shark who's willing to suffer the financial hit until we find our way to an affiliation that makes us a solid $$ generator.

Until we get another Bowman&Zenger combo leading a charge it just flat out WILL NOT HAPPEN. EVER. Currently, we should absolutely aspire to be THE best FCS program in the land and see where that will lead us.

In saying that, TotalRed, it's very disappointing that we still have...what appears to be...little to no progress on an IPF.
:text-+1:
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TIMMY
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Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:01 pm

There's not much I'd rather do on a Saturday afternoon than watch football at Hancock Stadium. Tuesday nights? Not so much.

I was one of the FBS or bust guys. Not anymore. Truth be told I don't think we'd draw much better if we were FBS. And I'd don't think we'd draw much worse if we were D1 non scholly. I know we cant afford FBS. And I think the department might be better off financially it it were non scholly.

I went to a game at the Butler Bowl. You know what they do there? They play football. Same as Hancock.
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