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Muller and Lyons

The place to talk Redbird Men's Basketball
ricohill
Senior
Posts: 827
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:00 pm

Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:48 pm

Redbirdwarrior wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:30 pm
So, once again, all of you are pegging all success as only being NCAA bids. So a coach that goes 1-26 during the season but team gets hot for 3 games and wobbles into the tournament is a better coach than one that wins at a 61% clip. That is 100% what you all seem to be saying.

As long as you are all honest about that, that is fine. But then you lose all right to complain about any team ever being "snubbed" because per your own beliefs on the topic, whomever the committee picks are the best 68 teams in the country every time. Further, you give up the right to complain about any sub 10 win season that comes from the next coach because, ya know, that grass is always greener. I personally give HCDM credit for making the show 2 years ago as it was nothing but money and politics that kept THE BEST TEAM IN SCHOOL HISTORY out.

So please, pick you side:

A) Dan Muller is a bad coach, but the NCAA is always 100% correct on selection Sunday and is in no way corrupt, influenced or flawed. Without a win in Stl, Dan Muller should be let go.

B) Dan Muller is a good coach and a proven consistent winner who was snubbed out of an NCAA bid because of money and politcs. Regardless of showing in Stl, he should stay.

There are no other options.
If we went 1-26 you would have to win 4 games to make the NCAA tournament. The MVC is awful, but doesn’t defy mathematics that a 1 win team would get a bye.
RedbirdMan
Sophomore
Posts: 239
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:11 pm

Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:50 pm

Redbirdwarrior wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:30 pm
So, once again, all of you are pegging all success as only being NCAA bids. So a coach that goes 1-26 during the season but team gets hot for 3 games and wobbles into the tournament is a better coach than one that wins at a 61% clip. That is 100% what you all seem to be saying.

As long as you are all honest about that, that is fine. But then you lose all right to complain about any team ever being "snubbed" because per your own beliefs on the topic, whomever the committee picks are the best 68 teams in the country every time. Further, you give up the right to complain about any sub 10 win season that comes from the next coach because, ya know, that grass is always greener. I personally give HCDM credit for making the show 2 years ago as it was nothing but money and politics that kept THE BEST TEAM IN SCHOOL HISTORY out.

So please, pick you side:

A) Dan Muller is a bad coach, but the NCAA is always 100% correct on selection Sunday and is in no way corrupt, influenced or flawed. Without a win in Stl, Dan Muller should be let go.

B) Dan Muller is a good coach and a proven consistent winner who was snubbed out of an NCAA bid because of money and politcs. Regardless of showing in Stl, he should stay.

There are no other options.
C) Muller is not a good coach, the NCAA is corrupt, his overall record is on par with Jankovich’s. (Who btw is currrently being scorched at SMU with a lot of fans calling for his head) NCAA bids are not the only qualifier. Player development, confident and focused teams, well developed game plans, knowledge of your teams strengths, and not letting your own ego ruin games are also important.
P.S. Muller provides none of those.
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ISU86
Freshman
Posts: 104
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:04 pm

Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:57 pm

I get the feeling there may be more than one or two posters out here who are demanding Dan be better at his job than they are at their own! I seriously doubt we are all in the top ten percent for our employer - especially given the amount of message board time some put in during a workday.

Dan has done many things the consensus of this board thought he either should do and/or Tim could/would not do. Schedule tougher. Recruit better players or different type of athletes than the majority of MVC schools. Be a part of the fabric of the community and school, rather than just an employee.

I do think his program approach is high risk/high reward. Not all of the recruits have been of high character, and some of them are not necessarily on-court aware/smart. I sometimes feel Dan forgets not all of his players are as court savvy as many of his Redbird teammates were "back in his day". They can make the highlight reel block/dunk/pass, but just as often comes the foul/air ball/turnover. I think the roster would minimally benefit from a smart point guard.

I also think the turnover of assistant coaches cannot be understated in terms of overall program progress. When you recruiters change season to season, it is tough to get a consistent type of player because each coach evaluates the player, or sells themselves and the program, differently.

I think Dan would benefit by having a coach on the bench who has had some head coaching experience/success (have any of Chris/Brendan/Brian been a head coach?). For example, Dino Gaudio left ESPN to assist Chris Mack at Louisville (and Chris came from Xavier). In a perfect world, maybe someone like a Coach Stallings (or similar, maybe/probably not as a high a profile) could be coerced to come in and lend a guiding hand for a season and be Dan's sounding board?

I don't think Dan is necessarily as far away as some think, but I think there needs to be some tweaking of his current approach/mix to get over the hump; however, if Dan decides to wash/rinse/repeat, then it may indeed be time.

And I do think Dan would probably get another P5 assistant spot if he wants.
no matter where you go ... there you are
ISU FAN 1
Senior
Posts: 1820
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:04 pm

Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:58 pm

ISU isn’t a destination job for anyone except Richardson. Muller’s either going to get fired or advance to another job. His buyout makes getting fired an unlikely scenario for the near term. I’m still rooting for him to launch off this stepping stone job. An NCAA berth has the potential to make everyone happy. It’s the best path for our program, and hope that turns into reality.
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Bird Friend
Senior
Posts: 1955
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:29 pm

Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:43 pm

ricohill wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:40 pm
isuquinndog wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:28 pm
ricohill wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:49 pm
What I find interesting is a lot of the Jank haters are now Muller supporters. Record and success is pretty much the same except the 16-17 season. 5 of Muller's 7 seasons are probably going to be under 20 wins. I think most of the arguments for Lyons and Muller are based on emotional appeal (friends with Larry or remember the glory days of Dan as a player).

Plus, for those that don't remember what the standard of excellence was at ISU.

Donewald -
85-86 - 15-14 9-7 - MVC Tournament Semi
86-87 - 19-13 7-7 - MVC Tournament Semi won 2 NIT Games
87-88 - 18-13 9-5 - MVC Champ Game - NIT

Had a bad 88-89 season and got fired (obviously there is more to it than record), but back in the day those results weren't good enough. Now they are worthy of a contract extension.
And many, including Bobby Knight, didn't think he should be fired. Not a good example.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct- ... story.html
3 NCAA Tournaments, 6 trips to post-season in 11 years, 2 MVC Championships, 2 NCAA Tournament wins, worst finish in MVC play was 5th, ranked in the AP poll, graduated his players and had very few off court issues. Terrible example.
Is it? 'Twas the boosters who wanted the firing . . .
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ricohill
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Posts: 827
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:00 pm

Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:18 pm

ISU FAN 1 wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:58 pm
ISU isn’t a destination job for anyone except Richardson. Muller’s either going to get fired or advance to another job. His buyout makes getting fired an unlikely scenario for the near term. I’m still rooting for him to launch off this stepping stone job. An NCAA berth has the potential to make everyone happy. It’s the best path for our program, and hope that turns into reality.
Agree 100 percent. I still hope Muller gets us to an NCAA Tournament and leaves. That is how it is supposed to work at ISU. Plus, as poorly as we have played there is still a great chance it happens. For everyone that complained about Janko's schedule. The MVC Tournament is essentially the Basketball Travelers Classic except it is in March in St. Louis. You have to beat 2, 16 seeds and a 15 seed (if Loyola doesn't lose before and you have to beat 3, 16 seeds).

Smithson, Donewald (would have if he left and if he kissed up to people that needed attention), Bender, and Stallings all followed the right path. Win and leave.
bb fan
Senior
Posts: 865
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:44 am

Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:21 pm

I would not be surprised if Muller is offered a P5 HC without making the tourney.

Of course, I hope he does make the tourney. In a little less than a month from now.
Birdswin
Sophomore
Posts: 351
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:58 pm

Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:37 pm

I certainly hope the Birds win ArchMadness. However, the difference in tight games - are the little things. This team has shown, they do not do the little things that make the difference. There is not a big difference between and A and a B student - it is the little things - attention to detail and discipline when studying, which then gives confidence, when it is most needed. It does not matter what sport - baseball, football, hockey and so on - in tight games, the little things make the difference, many more times than not.

Such as getting the ball with around 30 seconds - holding it to give it to a guard or trying to drive to the basket when the clock is more important (Fayne). Being able to stop the ball instead of allowing someone to drive the lane? Then, executing a simple in-bounds play. Little things. There were plenty more examples. It is the difference - that game should not even been close enough for a desperation three to matter.
gobirds85
Sophomore
Posts: 311
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:45 pm

Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:50 pm

bb fan wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:21 pm
I would not be surprised if Muller is offered a P5 HC without making the tourney.

Of course, I hope he does make the tourney. In a little less than a month from now.
What does Dan offer a P6 school? No dances, 61% winning percentage, tons of blown leads down the stretch...

Help me understand. We don’t even have a CBI banner.
bb fan
Senior
Posts: 865
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:44 am

Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:09 pm

I explained it in another discussion, gobirds85. I am hearing the "get to the NCAA thing" is not as big as it use to be for HC criteria. the P5 (The only P-whatever I recognize) knows they have fixed the system to make it extremely difficult for any other conference member get an at-large. So it's not as big a deal. Heck, there is a discussion here listing him as a coach the big conferences are watching. Hopefully, we won't have to find out if could happen or not.

And no, I don't think the P5's are gonna hold it to much against him -- a couple of desparation bank shot losses like you and a few other here do. And the P5 has a little more respect for the Valley than you do. They look at the results.
gobirds85
Sophomore
Posts: 311
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:45 pm

Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:23 pm

bb fan wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:09 pm
I explained it in another discussion, gobirds85. I am hearing the "get to the NCAA thing" is not as big as it use to be for HC criteria. the P5 (The only P-whatever I recognize) knows they have fixed the system to make it extremely difficult for any other conference member get an at-large. So it's not as big a deal. Heck, there is a discussion here listing him as a coach the big conferences are watching. Hopefully, we won't have to find out if could happen or not.

And no, I don't think the P5's are gonna hold it to much against him -- a couple of desparation bank shot losses like you and a few other here do. And the P5 has a little more respect for the Valley than you do. They look at the results.
I’m not talking about two losses at the buzzer. I’m talking ZERO dances in seven years, a 61% winning percentage in a mediocre conference. Look at his body of work over the last 6.5 years. We were close once to an at large bid. Once. I also read an article earlier in the season that we were a team to watch. I just didn’t expect to see us on the business end of espns top 10 plays of the day and PTI. I’m glad you can keep drinking Muller’s magic potion but I can’t. We continue to underachieve and I blame the coach for that. He won’t get a P6 HC given his current numbers.
Seven
Freshman
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:36 am

Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:33 pm

ISU86 wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:57 pm
I get the feeling there may be more than one or two posters out here who are demanding Dan be better at his job than they are at their own! I seriously doubt we are all in the top ten percent for our employer - especially given the amount of message board time some put in during a workday.

Dan has done many things the consensus of this board thought he either should do and/or Tim could/would not do. Schedule tougher. Recruit better players or different type of athletes than the majority of MVC schools. Be a part of the fabric of the community and school, rather than just an employee.

I do think his program approach is high risk/high reward. Not all of the recruits have been of high character, and some of them are not necessarily on-court aware/smart. I sometimes feel Dan forgets not all of his players are as court savvy as many of his Redbird teammates were "back in his day". They can make the highlight reel block/dunk/pass, but just as often comes the foul/air ball/turnover. I think the roster would minimally benefit from a smart point guard.

I also think the turnover of assistant coaches cannot be understated in terms of overall program progress. When you recruiters change season to season, it is tough to get a consistent type of player because each coach evaluates the player, or sells themselves and the program, differently.

I think Dan would benefit by having a coach on the bench who has had some head coaching experience/success (have any of Chris/Brendan/Brian been a head coach?). For example, Dino Gaudio left ESPN to assist Chris Mack at Louisville (and Chris came from Xavier). In a perfect world, maybe someone like a Coach Stallings (or similar, maybe/probably not as a high a profile) could be coerced to come in and lend a guiding hand for a season and be Dan's sounding board?

I don't think Dan is necessarily as far away as some think, but I think there needs to be some tweaking of his current approach/mix to get over the hump; however, if Dan decides to wash/rinse/repeat, then it may indeed be time.

And I do think Dan would probably get another P5 assistant spot if he wants.
Outstanding post. Astute point to open with.

Muller has succeeded in putting ISU in contention year after year and scheduling up. He has yet to succeed in the ultimate goal - the NCAA Tournament.

I like the odds of taking someone who’s close and learning to cover his weaknesses. Phil Mickelson always finished 2nd, made adjustments, and eventually broke through. Whether Muller closes the deal likely depends on the fit of his asssistants.
Seven
Freshman
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:36 am

Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:40 pm

gobirds85 wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:23 pm
bb fan wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:09 pm
I explained it in another discussion, gobirds85. I am hearing the "get to the NCAA thing" is not as big as it use to be for HC criteria. the P5 (The only P-whatever I recognize) knows they have fixed the system to make it extremely difficult for any other conference member get an at-large. So it's not as big a deal. Heck, there is a discussion here listing him as a coach the big conferences are watching. Hopefully, we won't have to find out if could happen or not.

And no, I don't think the P5's are gonna hold it to much against him -- a couple of desparation bank shot losses like you and a few other here do. And the P5 has a little more respect for the Valley than you do. They look at the results.
I’m not talking about two losses at the buzzer. I’m talking ZERO dances in seven years, a 61% winning percentage in a mediocre conference. Look at his body of work over the last 6.5 years. We were close once to an at large bid. Once. I also read an article earlier in the season that we were a team to watch. I just didn’t expect to see us on the business end of espns top 10 plays of the day and PTI. I’m glad you can keep drinking Muller’s magic potion but I can’t. We continue to underachieve and I blame the coach for that. He won’t get a P6 HC given his current numbers.
That 61% is 1st of the 10 current coaches.

The last time a coach leading his peers was fired, he choked a player.
Birdman07
Freshman
Posts: 81
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:33 am

Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:39 pm

61 got ISU what?

Joe maddon of the Cubs won a world series 2 years ago and he was almost fired this off-season.
gobirds85
Sophomore
Posts: 311
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:45 pm

Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:55 pm

Seven wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:40 pm
gobirds85 wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:23 pm
bb fan wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:09 pm
I explained it in another discussion, gobirds85. I am hearing the "get to the NCAA thing" is not as big as it use to be for HC criteria. the P5 (The only P-whatever I recognize) knows they have fixed the system to make it extremely difficult for any other conference member get an at-large. So it's not as big a deal. Heck, there is a discussion here listing him as a coach the big conferences are watching. Hopefully, we won't have to find out if could happen or not.

And no, I don't think the P5's are gonna hold it to much against him -- a couple of desparation bank shot losses like you and a few other here do. And the P5 has a little more respect for the Valley than you do. They look at the results.
I’m not talking about two losses at the buzzer. I’m talking ZERO dances in seven years, a 61% winning percentage in a mediocre conference. Look at his body of work over the last 6.5 years. We were close once to an at large bid. Once. I also read an article earlier in the season that we were a team to watch. I just didn’t expect to see us on the business end of espns top 10 plays of the day and PTI. I’m glad you can keep drinking Muller’s magic potion but I can’t. We continue to underachieve and I blame the coach for that. He won’t get a P6 HC given his current numbers.
That 61% is 1st of the 10 current coaches.

The last time a coach leading his peers was fired, he choked a player.
61% is pretty crappy. Let’s be real. That % would get most guys fired, but because our illustrious AD negotiated such a great contract extension with Dan, we might have to deal with this for a few more years.
HT59
Freshman
Posts: 192
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:58 pm

Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:59 pm

:text-+1:
Seven wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:33 pm
ISU86 wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:57 pm
I get the feeling there may be more than one or two posters out here who are demanding Dan be better at his job than they are at their own! I seriously doubt we are all in the top ten percent for our employer - especially given the amount of message board time some put in during a workday.

Dan has done many things the consensus of this board thought he either should do and/or Tim could/would not do. Schedule tougher. Recruit better players or different type of athletes than the majority of MVC schools. Be a part of the fabric of the community and school, rather than just an employee.

I do think his program approach is high risk/high reward. Not all of the recruits have been of high character, and some of them are not necessarily on-court aware/smart. I sometimes feel Dan forgets not all of his players are as court savvy as many of his Redbird teammates were "back in his day". They can make the highlight reel block/dunk/pass, but just as often comes the foul/air ball/turnover. I think the roster would minimally benefit from a smart point guard.

I also think the turnover of assistant coaches cannot be understated in terms of overall program progress. When you recruiters change season to season, it is tough to get a consistent type of player because each coach evaluates the player, or sells themselves and the program, differently.

I think Dan would benefit by having a coach on the bench who has had some head coaching experience/success (have any of Chris/Brendan/Brian been a head coach?). For example, Dino Gaudio left ESPN to assist Chris Mack at Louisville (and Chris came from Xavier). In a perfect world, maybe someone like a Coach Stallings (or similar, maybe/probably not as a high a profile) could be coerced to come in and lend a guiding hand for a season and be Dan's sounding board?

I don't think Dan is necessarily as far away as some think, but I think there needs to be some tweaking of his current approach/mix to get over the hump; however, if Dan decides to wash/rinse/repeat, then it may indeed be time.

And I do think Dan would probably get another P5 assistant spot if he wants.
Outstanding post. Astute point to open with.

Muller has succeeded in putting ISU in contention year after year and scheduling up. He has yet to succeed in the ultimate goal - the NCAA Tournament.

I like the odds of taking someone who’s close and learning to cover his weaknesses. Phil Mickelson always finished 2nd, made adjustments, and eventually broke through. Whether Muller closes the deal likely depends on the fit of his asssistants.
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Bird Friend
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Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:33 pm

Birdman07 wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:39 pm
61 got ISU what?

Joe maddon of the Cubs won a world series 2 years ago and he was almost fired this off-season.
So you're comparing Muller to Madden?
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ISU86
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Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:35 pm

gobirds85 wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:55 pm
61% is pretty crappy. Let’s be real. That % would get most guys fired, but because our illustrious AD negotiated such a great contract extension with Dan, we might have to deal with this for a few more years.
Dana Ford's was 47% (both in-conference and overall) at TSU and yet it netted him five years at MSU. Go figure.
no matter where you go ... there you are
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Bird Friend
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Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:40 pm

gobirds85 wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:50 pm
bb fan wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:21 pm
I would not be surprised if Muller is offered a P5 HC without making the tourney.

Of course, I hope he does make the tourney. In a little less than a month from now.
What does Dan offer a P6 school? No dances, 61% winning percentage, tons of blown leads down the stretch...

Help me understand. We don’t even have a CBI banner.
I'm not going to respond to your question, per se. I just want to point out to you that your wording suggests you have no intention of trying to understand even if someone were to put forth an argument.
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Humdinger
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Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:47 pm

Long post, but here goes.

Donewald got fired because the AD Ron Wellman, President Tom Wallace, and to a lesser degree some influential boosters just had enough of his lack of cooperation within the dept. He was approached about this several times. Not saying everyone disliked D. That firing pissed off a lot of people. It was a COUP, though. No one, and I mean NO ONE knew it was in the works except for Wallace and Wellman, and they had concluded FIRMLY that Donewald's curmudgeon attitude - including towards his superiors - had to go. A third gentleman was brought into the pic after the decision had been made, the night before D was fired, to prep for handling the storm. And it was a storm. National news and it stayed a story for quite a while. Say what you want - Well and Wall showed substantial virility in the coconuts department. **There's a great inside story to all this and that previously mentioned 3rd party has an in-depth, play by play first-person journal of the entire thing. I bring this story up because it'll be 30 years next month (WoW!) and I'm hoping he'll release his journal publicly to mark the anniversary. It's absolutely fascinating.

Donewald DID build RA, though, and it is ISU's crown jewel. '83, '84, and '85 got him that and he pushed HARD for a facilities upgrade, starting in '84, I believe. Big assist to the students. BIG.

DM. Dan, when asked, made it no secret that he was interested in the Dayton job. He was a late candidate, probably just a little late. Dan was getting great press towards the end of '16-'17 and folks, he was a very compelling coach set to be movin' on up like George and Weesie with the right opp...for him. It was UNIVERSAL here that we needed to lock him up and that he deserved a substantial raise. We (ISU) could not pay him what he was worth at the time. Factual statement, meaning he was worth more than 600K. So ISU back-ended the contract by tilting the contract, in terms of buyout or fired without cause, to Dan's favor in order to compensate for not paying him what he could get on the open market. I do recall ChiRedbirdfan and recovering curmudgeon ;) ISUFan1 bringing up moderate concern regarding the terms of the buyout (at the time the complaint was with the 50K Dan would owe if he left). I considered the buyout figs to be window dressing and a bit of a favor of sorts was given considering Dan's history and personal success with ISU. I know some of you will blow a nut over the 'favor' remark. So be it. I agreed with the contract upgrade at the time. Completely.

Now that redbirdfan.net has lost its mind, and we've taken two half court shots to the groin, peeps are severely pissed about those contractual figures. That's your right, I guess.
I'm not. We had people here (yes, here) saying we should get Dan close to 1M if we could. And...I'm not gonna completely judge this season until season is over. Strange and disappointing year - based off expectations. But it ain't over yet.

No doubt Dan loves ISU and wants to have a consistent winner here but if the right opp comes about...HE GONE. Hell yes he's competitive and he wants to compete at the highest level. I hope we make a run this year and he triples his salary in another opp next year. That will depend more on the domino effect of NCAA basketball than anything, though. Wouldn't bother me to see Muller take a step up in national affiliation and LL ride Trigger off into the sunset after a 30 year career at ISU.

Interesting thought. Our headiest player - our most consistent conference player thus far -made THE dumbest play of...the...year at the close of the MSU game. That ain't on Muller or Lyons, fundamentally, and I've tried to figure that every way to Sunday. Matt deserves the break he's received here regarding that play cause he's been so good as our glue guy, and what a good kid he is for us on the floor. But damn that was polar opposite of his resume. Almost felt like destiny.

Good gravy I hope not. Seniors - play like seniors. See ya in Cedar Falls. :happy-smileyinthebox:
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