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Muller and Lyons

The place to talk Redbird Men's Basketball
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91Bird
Freshman
Posts: 76
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2017 9:40 am

Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:16 pm

I'm hoping this thread stays civil and is a good discussion of everyone's opinions on this. :)

Muller - I've stated before that I was a huge fan of Dan when he played here and I was so excited when we hired him. There is no doubt he loves this university and wants to end out NCAA drought and bring the program back to the level it was when he played here. He is always appreciative of the fan support and things like buying pizza for the students before the Loyola game is a class act. I've only talked to him briefly, but there is no doubt in my mind he's one of the good guys. That being said, watching his teams while he's been here...the offense we run, the substitutions, the bad losses in big games, the success in recruiting, there constantly being some player in the doghouse, the off court legal issues, the lack of execution down the stretch in games....I seriously wonder if he's very good at running this program. Yes, I know, he was the COY a few years ago. He's definitely not the worst coach in the conference. But is he a top 3 coach? My honest answer is no. I'm not saying he should be fired after the season. There is the financial aspect of having to buy him out of his contract. And bringing in a new coach usually results in a period of the new guy bringing in his players, coaching staff, etc. I think he'll win 16-18 games a year every year he's here. If that's the goal, then he's our guy. I want more than that. I'm not saying ncaa tournament every year. But it's been a long time since we made it. I see teams like Northern Kentucky, Houston, Nevada, Central Florida, Old Dominion, Buffalo, etc and it seems like we should be able to be at that level consistently.

Lyons - This is where I don't understand the unhappiness some posters feel. It's probably ignorance on my part. Is it mainly how everything seems to just be the same old, same old without there appearing to be advancement in things like getting an indoor practice facility built? His coaching hires have probably been more miss than hit. The women's volleyball and basketball programs are pointing up. The other sports don't seem to be currently.

Anyway, just looking to get people's thoughts on this. Hopefully this team can string 3 good games together in St. Louis and make me look like an idiot. One thing we can all agree on is we all want the Birds to have success. Losses like yesterday hurt. But as much as it sucks for us, it sucks 100 times worse for those coaches and players. Let's hope this is the low point for this season and we have good times ahead in the next month.
Flagship08
Freshman
Posts: 107
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:29 pm

Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:29 pm

I think people need to step back and realize how successful he has been here at ISU and that we are a mid major school. Also, keep in mind we are in first place if those 2 half court shots don't drop. People are acting like Bradley fans did calling for the head of Jim Les and look where they are now as a program? I'm OK being a perennial top 3 Valley school, occasionally on the NCAA at large bubble and a regular in the conference championship game. That is what Dan has brought to this program. Sure we've had some bad luck and poor execution on the big games but let's not pretend like firing Muller and rolling the dice on a new coach is our best option right now.
ISU FAN 1
Senior
Posts: 2379
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:04 pm

Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:33 pm

Flagship08 wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:29 pm
I think people need to step back and realize how successful he has been here at ISU and that we are a mid major school. Also, keep in mind we are in first place if those 2 half court shots don't drop. People are acting like Bradley fans did calling for the head of Jim Les and look where they are now as a program? I'm OK being a perennial top 3 Valley school, occasionally on the NCAA at large bubble and a regular in the conference championship game. That is what Dan has brought to this program. Sure we've had some bad luck and poor execution on the big games but let's not pretend like firing Muller and rolling the dice on a new coach is our best option right now.
No such thing as MVC team truly being in any legitimate at large discussion under any scenario. That ship has sailed. MVC is a one bid league, just like all the other shitbag bottom feeder leagues. It’s Win on Sunday, or bust.
Flagship08
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Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:39 pm

ISU FAN 1 wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:33 pm

No such thing as MVC team truly being in any legitimate at large discussion under any scenario. That ship has sailed. MVC is a one bid league, just like all the other shitbag bottom feeder leagues. It’s Win on Sunday, or bust.
If your referring to only this season then your missing the point. If your referring to the MVC going forward you are simply wrong. This would be the first year an MVC team isn't being considered for an at large bid.
Seven
Freshman
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:36 am

Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:09 pm

Flagship08 wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:39 pm
ISU FAN 1 wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:33 pm

No such thing as MVC team truly being in any legitimate at large discussion under any scenario. That ship has sailed. MVC is a one bid league, just like all the other shitbag bottom feeder leagues. It’s Win on Sunday, or bust.
If your referring to only this season then your missing the point. If your referring to the MVC going forward you are simply wrong. This would be the first year an MVC team isn't being considered for an at large bid.
You would be correct. Even in 1-bid years, the autorep was at least in discussion even if they would’ve missed the cut.

Muller has the team in contention near the top every year. I’ll take those odds.
gobirds85
Junior
Posts: 563
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:45 pm

Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:25 pm

Flagship08 wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:29 pm
I think people need to step back and realize how successful he has been here at ISU and that we are a mid major school. Also, keep in mind we are in first place if those 2 half court shots don't drop. People are acting like Bradley fans did calling for the head of Jim Les and look where they are now as a program? I'm OK being a perennial top 3 Valley school, occasionally on the NCAA at large bubble and a regular in the conference championship game. That is what Dan has brought to this program. Sure we've had some bad luck and poor execution on the big games but let's not pretend like firing Muller and rolling the dice on a new coach is our best option right now.
Aim low. Other valley schools are passing us by. Take a look at the recent number of non-power 6 schools getting at large bids. Spoiler alert...it's trending down. The valley is a one bid league and we have to recognize that fact. The commish was on the NIT selection committee and there wasn't a single valley team in the discussion there either and if Loyola sweeps the conference and tourney I predict 0.00 valley teams will get an NIT bid again. In year seven of his HC career we have been stomped by Georgia, Ole Miss, UIC, bu, Valpo, SDSU and have squandered late game leads and struggled to beat Chicago St, who was recently beat by that perennial west coast powerhouse, California Baptist 94-44. Who the hell even knew there were Baptists in California?

This is exactly the type of thinking that holds us back. Think small, aim low.
Birdman07
Freshman
Posts: 176
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:33 am

Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:34 pm

Successful? Two seasons over 18 wins and only one truly successful season.
bb fan
Senior
Posts: 917
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:44 am

Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:35 pm

I think I have been clear on both of these guys. Personally, just don't have the time and energy to keep going there. On Lyons, I was specifically asked what I thought and provided a very detailed, thoughtful analysis. For me, anyway this is just taking things in more circles, but you folks have a good time with it.
ricohill
Senior
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Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:00 pm

Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:49 pm

What I find interesting is a lot of the Jank haters are now Muller supporters. Record and success is pretty much the same except the 16-17 season. 5 of Muller's 7 seasons are probably going to be under 20 wins. I think most of the arguments for Lyons and Muller are based on emotional appeal (friends with Larry or remember the glory days of Dan as a player).

Plus, for those that don't remember what the standard of excellence was at ISU.

Donewald -
85-86 - 15-14 9-7 - MVC Tournament Semi
86-87 - 19-13 7-7 - MVC Tournament Semi won 2 NIT Games
87-88 - 18-13 9-5 - MVC Champ Game - NIT

Had a bad 88-89 season and got fired (obviously there is more to it than record), but back in the day those results weren't good enough. Now they are worthy of a contract extension.
Last edited by ricohill on Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
CaliRdBrd
Senior
Posts: 1047
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:24 pm

Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:54 pm

ISU FAN 1 wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:33 pm
Flagship08 wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:29 pm
I think people need to step back and realize how successful he has been here at ISU and that we are a mid major school. Also, keep in mind we are in first place if those 2 half court shots don't drop. People are acting like Bradley fans did calling for the head of Jim Les and look where they are now as a program? I'm OK being a perennial top 3 Valley school, occasionally on the NCAA at large bubble and a regular in the conference championship game. That is what Dan has brought to this program. Sure we've had some bad luck and poor execution on the big games but let's not pretend like firing Muller and rolling the dice on a new coach is our best option right now.
No such thing as MVC team truly being in any legitimate at large discussion under any scenario. That ship has sailed. MVC is a one bid league, just like all the other shitbag bottom feeder leagues. It’s Win on Sunday, or bust.
FWIW, the Pac 12 is looking like a one-bid league:)
gobirds85
Junior
Posts: 563
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:45 pm

Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:57 pm

CaliRdBrd wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:54 pm
ISU FAN 1 wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:33 pm
Flagship08 wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:29 pm
I think people need to step back and realize how successful he has been here at ISU and that we are a mid major school. Also, keep in mind we are in first place if those 2 half court shots don't drop. People are acting like Bradley fans did calling for the head of Jim Les and look where they are now as a program? I'm OK being a perennial top 3 Valley school, occasionally on the NCAA at large bubble and a regular in the conference championship game. That is what Dan has brought to this program. Sure we've had some bad luck and poor execution on the big games but let's not pretend like firing Muller and rolling the dice on a new coach is our best option right now.
No such thing as MVC team truly being in any legitimate at large discussion under any scenario. That ship has sailed. MVC is a one bid league, just like all the other shitbag bottom feeder leagues. It’s Win on Sunday, or bust.
FWIW, the Pac 12 is looking like a one-bid league:)
Yea, they aren't very stout this year. Probably lucky not to have California Baptist in the conference. And the AAC is looking for four bids.
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isuquinndog
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Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:57 pm

We wouldn't want be like UCLA, Arizona or Stanford.
LET'S WIN THIS GAME!
CaliRdBrd
Senior
Posts: 1047
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:24 pm

Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:58 pm

gobirds85 wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:57 pm
CaliRdBrd wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:54 pm
ISU FAN 1 wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:33 pm

No such thing as MVC team truly being in any legitimate at large discussion under any scenario. That ship has sailed. MVC is a one bid league, just like all the other shitbag bottom feeder leagues. It’s Win on Sunday, or bust.
FWIW, the Pac 12 is looking like a one-bid league:)
Yea, they aren't very stout this year. Probably lucky not to have California Baptist in the conference. And the AAC is looking for four bids.
The difference is, we all know the Pac-12 will bounce back, The Valley? Not so sure....
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saxman210
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Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:58 pm

My thoughts:

I like Larry Lyons. I think he’s a gentleman who is doing the job the best way that he knows how. But, I would prefer that we go a different, more progressive direction, when he is ready to leave. I want to see as much effort as possible in getting students to games, even if it means athletics pushing the university to get a fee added to tuition to cover the costs of getting students into games at no cost with a student ID. I want to see athletics engage our huge local businesses (Country and State Farm) and try to get new residents of the BN area involved in Redbird sports. New employees to those two businesses get 4 tickets to any game free. Build that hometown team culture.

As for Dan Muller, I also like him as a person. I think he wants what’s best for the program. I think he understands that he’s a coach at a midmajor and that he needs to take risks that other coaches won’t take. I have two complaints with Dan. The first is the lack of an NCAA appearance. We just can’t get over that hump. The second is off the court legal troubles. When we graduated PLee, Tony Wills, Javaka Thompson and Deontae Hawkins, 3 of the 4 of them had prior DUI arrests. That’s simply unacceptable and we haven’t been discussed Milik yet. That being said, I am willing to give Dan the rest of his contract to see if he can get us over that hump.

Firing someone, in my opinion, means that they’re doing such a terrible job that they’re doing irreparable harm to a program. Barb Smith deserved to be fired. But I don’t think Lyons or Muller deserve to be.

EDIT: Since we’re talking about Valley affiliation in here now. The Valley needs to be better. Losing Creighton and Wichita State hurt, absolutely no doubt about it. Valpo and Loyola didn’t replace their prestige in men’s basketball.
Last edited by saxman210 on Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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SgtHulka
Senior
Posts: 1319
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:41 pm

Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:59 pm

ricohill wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:49 pm
What I find interesting is a lot of the Jank haters are now Muller supporters. Record and success is pretty much the same except the 16-17 season. 5 of Muller's 7 seasons are probably going to be under 20 wins. I think most of the arguments for Lyons and Muller are based on emotional appeal (friends with Larry or remember the glory days of Dan as a player).

Plus, for those that don't remember what the standard of excellence was at ISU.

Donewald -
85-86 - 15-14 9-7 - MVC Tournament Semi
86-87 - 19-13 7-7 - MVC Tournament Semi won 2 NIT Games
87-88 - 18-13 9-5 - MVC Champ Game - NIT

Had a bad 88-89 season and got fired (obviously there is more to it than record), but back in the day those results weren't good enough. Now they are worthy of a contract extension.
Those records were worthy of getting us Redbird Arena. You can't compare then to now. 2 totally different coaches and 2 totally different scenarios.
gobirds85
Junior
Posts: 563
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:45 pm

Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:08 pm

saxman210 wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:58 pm
My thoughts:

I like Larry Lyons. I think he’s a gentleman who is doing the job the best way that he knows how. But, I would prefer that we go a different, more progressive direction, when he is ready to leave. I want to see as much effort as possible in getting students to games, even if it means athletics pushing the university to get a fee added to tuition to cover the costs of getting students into games at no cost with a student ID. I want to see athletics engage our huge local businesses (Country and State Farm) and try to get new residents of the BN area involved in Redbird sports. New employees to those two businesses get 4 tickets to any game free. Build that hometown team culture.

As for Dan Muller, I also like him as a person. I think he wants what’s best for the program. I think he understands that he’s a coach at a midmajor and that he needs to take risks that other coaches won’t take. I have two complaints with Dan. The first is the lack of an NCAA appearance. We just can’t get over that hump. The second is off the court legal troubles. When we graduated PLee, Tony Wills, Javaka Thompson and Deontae Hawkins, 3 of the 4 of them had prior DUI arrests. That’s simply unacceptable and we haven’t been discussed Milik yet. That being said, I am willing to give Dan the rest of his contract to see if he can get us over that hump.

Firing someone, in my opinion, means that they’re doing such a terrible job that they’re doing irreparable harm to a program. Barb Smith deserved to be fired. But I don’t think Lyons or Muller deserve to be.
Firing or not renewing an employee could also mean that they weren't getting the job done and that it is time for a change. It is my honest opinion that we are stuck with Dan until his contract runs it's course. If this happens then this year might look like lollipops and unicorns as we lose a lot from a fairly mediocre team.

I am not positive so maybe someone can chime in here, but I believe lyon's contract is up this year? Anyone with knowledge? Bueller? But if this is the case then, time to get a cardboard box for him. I would love to hear his explanation on why he gave Dan such a one sided extension.
ricohill
Senior
Posts: 1220
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:00 pm

Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:21 pm

gobirds85 wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:08 pm
saxman210 wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:58 pm
My thoughts:

I like Larry Lyons. I think he’s a gentleman who is doing the job the best way that he knows how. But, I would prefer that we go a different, more progressive direction, when he is ready to leave. I want to see as much effort as possible in getting students to games, even if it means athletics pushing the university to get a fee added to tuition to cover the costs of getting students into games at no cost with a student ID. I want to see athletics engage our huge local businesses (Country and State Farm) and try to get new residents of the BN area involved in Redbird sports. New employees to those two businesses get 4 tickets to any game free. Build that hometown team culture.

As for Dan Muller, I also like him as a person. I think he wants what’s best for the program. I think he understands that he’s a coach at a midmajor and that he needs to take risks that other coaches won’t take. I have two complaints with Dan. The first is the lack of an NCAA appearance. We just can’t get over that hump. The second is off the court legal troubles. When we graduated PLee, Tony Wills, Javaka Thompson and Deontae Hawkins, 3 of the 4 of them had prior DUI arrests. That’s simply unacceptable and we haven’t been discussed Milik yet. That being said, I am willing to give Dan the rest of his contract to see if he can get us over that hump.

Firing someone, in my opinion, means that they’re doing such a terrible job that they’re doing irreparable harm to a program. Barb Smith deserved to be fired. But I don’t think Lyons or Muller deserve to be.
Firing or not renewing an employee could also mean that they weren't getting the job done and that it is time for a change. It is my honest opinion that we are stuck with Dan until his contract runs it's course. If this happens then this year might look like lollipops and unicorns as we lose a lot from a fairly mediocre team.

I am not positive so maybe someone can chime in here, but I believe lyon's contract is up this year? Anyone with knowledge? Bueller? But if this is the case then, time to get a cardboard box for him. I would love to hear his explanation on why he gave Dan such a one sided extension.
I think Lyons will be around for 2 to 3 more years from my sources. At this point he can't really hurt the program any more, other than not progress it forward.
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isuquinndog
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Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:28 pm

ricohill wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:49 pm
What I find interesting is a lot of the Jank haters are now Muller supporters. Record and success is pretty much the same except the 16-17 season. 5 of Muller's 7 seasons are probably going to be under 20 wins. I think most of the arguments for Lyons and Muller are based on emotional appeal (friends with Larry or remember the glory days of Dan as a player).

Plus, for those that don't remember what the standard of excellence was at ISU.

Donewald -
85-86 - 15-14 9-7 - MVC Tournament Semi
86-87 - 19-13 7-7 - MVC Tournament Semi won 2 NIT Games
87-88 - 18-13 9-5 - MVC Champ Game - NIT

Had a bad 88-89 season and got fired (obviously there is more to it than record), but back in the day those results weren't good enough. Now they are worthy of a contract extension.
And many, including Bobby Knight, didn't think he should be fired. Not a good example.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct- ... story.html
LET'S WIN THIS GAME!
Retire 12
Sophomore
Posts: 325
Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:54 pm

Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:31 pm

You guys are wanting to fire someone after a team gets beat on a miracle buzzer beater twice in one season, and had that not happened we'd be at the top of the conference.

I get your Sweet 16 expectations... I share them as well... but these reactions are laughable right now.
ricohill
Senior
Posts: 1220
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:00 pm

Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:36 pm

I would even throw Dietz into this mix. How much does Dietz care if ISU athletics are great. Lyons went public again saying an indoor facility is the athletics departments number 1 priority, but is going to get zero support from the University. Is it Larry not fighting hard enough? Does Dietz not care?

There doesn't seem to be a sense of urgency from anyone involved to become the next Butler, Wichita State, Creighton ect... Maybe we as fans have higher expectations for success than the University and Athletic Department?
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