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The place to talk Redbird Men's Basketball
ISU FAN 1
Senior
Posts: 2377
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:04 pm

Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:51 am

tpskult wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:33 am
ISU FAN 1 wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:55 am
If my choices are Negative Nellie or Positive Pansy, intellectual honesty dictates the former IMO. That said, I want this season to last as long as possible. Bet it’s with another loss on Sunday.
Hopefully it's Sunday of the NCAA tournament after winning the first game on Friday.
Dream big. Regional Final.
stats
Sophomore
Posts: 217
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:52 pm

Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:52 am

Redbirdwarrior wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:13 am
Quick reminder that none of this really matters. True that we probably arent going to be lifting the MVC regular season trophy this year, but would any of you care if we did if it didn't mean going to the dance?

These games are practice for March. They just are at this point. We not know what NOT to do with a 2 point lead and the ball with 7 seconds left.

As it is, there is virtually no difference between team 1 and team 6 in the MVC. ISU will certainly be somewhere in that 6. So, I'm just like... meh.
I know I'm in the minority, but I feel winning the conference season proves more about your team than winning a 3 day tournament. I am also in the minority that feel like non-conference is practice getting you ready for conference. All that being said, I would rather make the tournament than win the league at this point.
I wish winning the league was an automatic bid and winning the tournament gave you an automatic play-in game to the tournament.
Flagship08
Freshman
Posts: 107
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:29 pm

Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:09 pm

Random thought: Imagine if these two buzzer beaters happened while we we're in contention for an at-large bid.
redneckredbird
Freshman
Posts: 51
Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:48 pm

Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:14 pm

Last post for a while. I love this program. I want as many swings as possible to get to the dance. Dan's teams have been within a game of the tourney how many times? 3 out of 6. I'm no math major but I think that's half of the time we have been within a game of ending the streak with HCDM at the helm. I'd take that moving forward. Gotta get there to have a chance. Now we gotta figure out how to win it. I haven't lost faith in Dan, if you have, ok. Don't tell me Im crazy and ok with mediocrity, I'm not. I'm just not letting one team that has underperformed change how I feel about the coach (who has brought his teams to the championship final half the time) as whole.
ISU FAN 1
Senior
Posts: 2377
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:04 pm

Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:15 pm

Flagship08 wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:09 pm
Random thought: Imagine if these two buzzer beaters happened while we we're in contention for an at-large bid.
We are never in contention for an at large berth. See 2016-17 season. Never gonna happen again. MVC is sinking like a stone. The OVC has had 1 at large berth in their history. If we aren’t the OVC yet, that’s certainly where we’re heading. MVC at large. Lol. Go search for Bigfoot while you’re at it.
ISU FAN 1
Senior
Posts: 2377
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:04 pm

Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:17 pm

ISU won the uniform contest. Those Bear uni’s were ugly.
ISU FAN 1
Senior
Posts: 2377
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:04 pm

Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:23 pm

While I love what Chastain does, need more than 2 points from someone that gets 30 minutes of game time. He’s capable of more, and need him to look for his offense more, and bring another threat and balance to the offense.
cubird
Sophomore
Posts: 286
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:01 am

Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:26 pm

Winning the Conference gets u an automatic NIT Bid.
User avatar
Redbirdwarrior
Junior
Posts: 571
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:46 pm

Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:30 pm

stats wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:52 am
Redbirdwarrior wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:13 am
Quick reminder that none of this really matters. True that we probably arent going to be lifting the MVC regular season trophy this year, but would any of you care if we did if it didn't mean going to the dance?

These games are practice for March. They just are at this point. We not know what NOT to do with a 2 point lead and the ball with 7 seconds left.

As it is, there is virtually no difference between team 1 and team 6 in the MVC. ISU will certainly be somewhere in that 6. So, I'm just like... meh.
I know I'm in the minority, but I feel winning the conference season proves more about your team than winning a 3 day tournament. I am also in the minority that feel like non-conference is practice getting you ready for conference. All that being said, I would rather make the tournament than win the league at this point.
I wish winning the league was an automatic bid and winning the tournament gave you an automatic play-in game to the tournament.
You and I are in the same boat. When ISU got stiffed 3 years ago after a 28 win season and a conference title with wins over T25 teams, I was WAY more proud of that team than one that would have backdoored itself into the NCAA. ISU was a championship level team that year ALL year. It was the best ISU could have possibly done- the best season in our school's history.

It is possible that HCDM ends up winning only 18 games this year, but still somehow wins the Valley championship in STL. People will then pat his back and tell him great job, but I personally don't think he would have done 1/3rd the job this year he did 3 years ago.

As it is, though, 2 absolutely half court prayers have put ISU into a spot where the regular season title is gone, so onto the next option. Practice for March.
ricohill
Senior
Posts: 1217
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:00 pm

Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:59 pm

Looking at Muller's career and blown leads it seems to be this is more of a trend than I thought.

2012-13 -
- Northwestern - 10 point 2nd half lead - L 69-72
- Louisville - 8 pt halftime lead - L 66-69
- Wyoming - 19 pt lead 2nd half - L 81-67
- Wichita State - 10 pt lead with 6:41 left - L 68-67

2013-14
-Vermont - 18 pt 1st half lead - L 76-87
-Missouri State - 10 pt half time lead, 12 pt lead with 13 mins to go- L 70-78
-SIU - 2 pt lead with 29 secs - L 65-66

2014-15
-Utah State - 8 pt second half lead - L 55-60
-Indiana State - 3 pt lead with 3 to go - L 70-71
-UNI - 12 pt lead with 10 mins to go - L 53-54
- SIU - 2 pt lead with 1:37 to go - L 59-65
-UNI - MVC Tourney 14 pt halftime lead - L 60-69

2015-16
-Maryland - 5pt lead w 7 mins to go - L 66-77
- SIU - 12 point 2nd half lead - L 78-81
- Mo State - 6pt lead 46 seconds left in regulation - 4 pt lead 2 mins left in OT- L 81-84

2016-17
- Murray State 7 pt lead 3:23 to go (2PT lead 38 secs left)- L 70-73
-TCU - 7 pt second half lead - 1 pt lead w 2min to go - L 71-80
-Tulsa 7 pt lead with 5 mins to go - L 68-70
-San Fran - 4pt 2nd half lead - L 58-66

2017-18
Charleston Southern - 2pt lead w 1 min left - L 62-64
SIU - 14 pt lead with 7:50 to go - L 70-74


2018-19
Valpo - 10 pt lead 2 min - 6 pt lead 1 min - L 56-58
Mo State - Up5 with 13 secs left - L 65-66
bb fan
Senior
Posts: 917
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:44 am

Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:27 pm

Been trying to keep up. Lots of good stuff. And some of the usual suspects beating the coach and team up. And some of that I get as well. Gobirds85, regarding my use of the term "Debbie Downer", I take no respite in using that term referring to those who just seem want to beat up the program at any turn and in any way possible. And I can't take credit for the term debbie downer. Somebody else came up with it, and I thought it fitting. Somebody with more time can probably go back in check this, but it may have occurred before a site crash.

Fact is every site like this has their detractors. It almost doesn't matter how good the program is. There are always a few that wants the coach fired, the AD fired, blah, blah, blah. What you have to do is throw out the slammers and the pie in the sky-ers. One thing that I find disturbing is that the Debbie Downers seem very mean with their vitriol. Too often snarky and personal. I am not reading anything over glowing or unrealistic from the bullish folks. In fact, they are kind of hard to even detect. I think 90% of our posters are actually realistic and pragmatic about things. So it goes.

Thinking about our program, I was reminded by something an AD told me several years ago (not one of ours). He said you usually give a coach 5 years, unless something goes south very quickly with losing records or some sort of indiscretion occurs. So, in year 5, our coach wins the conference championship. Gets the most number of wins in program history. Is voted COY. And brings the program one of the best teams in the history of the program that includes a player that wins both POY and DPOY. A player a few folks here actually panned in a mean way. Debbie Downers, those of just plain, hard cold facts. No spin.

And Rico, you may get your wish. The P5's know that they have stacked the deck against the rest of college basketball when it comes to getting those at large tourney bids. They see that the metric of getting to the tourney is extremely difficult for guys like Muller. If they like him, he may still go. There is a discussion here about this with his name listed in coaches to watch move up. I am not surprised. And I would not be surprised if he did jump. I believe Dan is a loyal guy, and he loves this place. But he wants to coach in the NCAA tournament, too. That is the goal of every college coach. He sees how much easier it is for a mediocre P5 get there than a better, deserving program from other conferences like the Valley. We shall see.

I think this year's team has a good amount of talent. But is there are continuity issues, and this group of players don't seem as hungry or focused as I hoped. Is it all the coach? I dunno about that. It always is to some extent, I suppose. I think HCDM has had players and teams with the hungryness needed. Does that mean we should go all burnt earth on the coach, team, admins, etc right now. I don't think so. If this makes me a pie in the sky-er, so be it.
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isuquinndog
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Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:43 pm

If you can handle a different angle.


LET'S WIN THIS GAME!
gobirds85
Junior
Posts: 560
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:45 pm

Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:44 pm

bb fan wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:27 pm
Been trying to keep up. Lots of good stuff. And some of the usual suspects beating the coach and team up. And some of that I get as well. Gobirds85, regarding my use of the term "Debbie Downer", I take no respite in using that term referring to those who just seem want to beat up the program at any turn and in any way possible. And I can't take credit for it. Somebody else came up with it, and I thought it fitting. Somebody with more time can probably go back in check this, but it may have occurred before a site crash.

Fact is every site like this has their detractors. It almost doesn't matter how good the program is. There are always a few that wants the coach fired, the AD fired, blah, blah, blah. What you have to do is throw out the slammers and the pie in the sky-ers. One thing that I find disturbing is that the Debbie Downers seemed very mean with their vitriol. Too often snarky and personal. I am not reading anything over glowing or unrealistic from the bullish folks. In fact, they are kind of hard to even detect. I think 90% of our poster are actually realistic and pragmatic about things. So it goes.

Thinking about our program, I was reminded by something an AD told me several years ago (not one of ours). He said you usually give a coach 5 years, unless something goes south very quickly with losing records or some sort of indiscretion occurs. So, in year 5, our coach win the conference championship. Gets the most number of wins in program history. Is voted COY. And brings the program one of the best teams in the history of the program that includes a player that wins both POY and DPOY. A player a few folks here actually panned in a mean way.. Debbie Downers, those of just plain, hard cold facts. No spin.

And Rico, you may get your wish. The P5's know that they have stacked the deck against the rest of college basketball when it comes to getting those at large tourney bids. They see that the metric of getting to the tourney is extremely difficult for guys like Muller. If they like him, he may still go. There is a discussion here about this with his name listed. I am not surprised. And I would not be surprised if he did jump. I believe Dan is a loyal guy, and he loves this place. But he wants to coach in the NCAA tournament, too. That is the goal of every college coach. He sees how much easier it is for a mediocre P5 get there than a good, deserving program from other conferences like the Valley. We shall see.

I think this year's team has a good amount of talent. But is there are continuity issues, and this group of players don't seem as hungry or focused as I hoped. Is it all the coach? I dunno about that. It always is to some extent, I suppose. I think HCDM has had players and teams with the hungryness needed. Does that mean we should go all burnt earth on the coach, team, admins, etc right now. I don't think so. If this makes me a pie in the sky-er, so be it.
I will ask you yet, another rhetorical question, as you haven't answered any of my questions so I do not expect you to answer this one. Last year Porter Moser led Loyola to an incredible run thru March and into the Final Four. Can anyone tell me if any big schools called on him for their HC openings? If Porter didn't receive any major attention what makes you think Dan is going to get a call?

60% winning percentage. Meh.

Two short NIT runs. I believe we lost both games at home. Meh.

Zero ncaa tourneys. Crap.

One valley conference co-championship only to get creamed in the valley championship. Ouch.

We couldn't even win the CBI. Super.

Yea, I'm pretty sure UCLA is looking for his number right now.


I am more prone to call me and like minded fans "realists". Dan simply can't get it done. The problem is, as a realist, we might be stuck with him for the foreseeable future. And once again, we can thank Larry lyons for that stroke of genius.
CaliRdBrd
Senior
Posts: 1047
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:24 pm

Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:45 pm

ISU FAN 1 wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:18 am
Dan’s a good recruiter? By what metric? NCAA apperarences?

He brings in some good talent, but not always the right pieces. His rosters are usually comprised of 11 3 point shooters and a couple overmatched post players. Too often playing without a true point guard. And I’m not interested in hearing about Clarance’s premature departure and his underperforming in whatever 4 Season’s type “pro” basketball he thinks he’s playing in.
Who says he brings in good talent? To me, he recruits very average 2-star players - along with all the other mid majors - in hopes that he can turn them into 3 or 4-stars within a few years. The issue is he has not shown he can convert a 2-star into a 3-star. When we do see progression, I don't think it's Dan, I think it was Dana, Yak, etc that should be credited with their growth.
The biggest issue is the ridiculous "pie in the sky" outlook the fan base has on what I see as very average talent coming in every year. Of course, it doesn't help his case when HCDM says this is the greatest team he's ever had. That was propaganda.
CaliRdBrd
Senior
Posts: 1047
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:24 pm

Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:51 pm

bb fan wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:27 pm
Been trying to keep up. Lots of good stuff. And some of the usual suspects beating the coach and team up. And some of that I get as well. Gobirds85, regarding my use of the term "Debbie Downer", I take no respite in using that term referring to those who just seem want to beat up the program at any turn and in any way possible. And I can't take credit for the term debbie downer. Somebody else came up with it, and I thought it fitting. Somebody with more time can probably go back in check this, but it may have occurred before a site crash.

Fact is every site like this has their detractors. It almost doesn't matter how good the program is. There are always a few that wants the coach fired, the AD fired, blah, blah, blah. What you have to do is throw out the slammers and the pie in the sky-ers. One thing that I find disturbing is that the Debbie Downers seem very mean with their vitriol. Too often snarky and personal. I am not reading anything over glowing or unrealistic from the bullish folks. In fact, they are kind of hard to even detect. I think 90% of our posters are actually realistic and pragmatic about things. So it goes.

Thinking about our program, I was reminded by something an AD told me several years ago (not one of ours). He said you usually give a coach 5 years, unless something goes south very quickly with losing records or some sort of indiscretion occurs. So, in year 5, our coach wins the conference championship. Gets the most number of wins in program history. Is voted COY. And brings the program one of the best teams in the history of the program that includes a player that wins both POY and DPOY. A player a few folks here actually panned in a mean way. Debbie Downers, those of just plain, hard cold facts. No spin.

And Rico, you may get your wish. The P5's know that they have stacked the deck against the rest of college basketball when it comes to getting those at large tourney bids. They see that the metric of getting to the tourney is extremely difficult for guys like Muller. If they like him, he may still go. There is a discussion here about this with his name listed in coaches to watch move up. I am not surprised. And I would not be surprised if he did jump. I believe Dan is a loyal guy, and he loves this place. But he wants to coach in the NCAA tournament, too. That is the goal of every college coach. He sees how much easier it is for a mediocre P5 get there than a better, deserving program from other conferences like the Valley. We shall see.

I think this year's team has a good amount of talent. But is there are continuity issues, and this group of players don't seem as hungry or focused as I hoped. Is it all the coach? I dunno about that. It always is to some extent, I suppose. I think HCDM has had players and teams with the hungryness needed. Does that mean we should go all burnt earth on the coach, team, admins, etc right now. I don't think so. If this makes me a pie in the sky-er, so be it.
Logical post.

Let's face it, Dan will be here until his contract expires. What we do after that, who knows...
Hopefully, he does something that warrants an extension (i.e. multiple NCAA wins).
HT59
Sophomore
Posts: 241
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:58 pm

Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:36 pm

ricohill wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:59 am
TheTruth wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:53 am
redneckredbird wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:39 am
I can't argue that. I was devastated at the arena that night! I guess my point is, there is no guarantee that a new coach is a better coach. This is Dan's first gig as a head coach, he still has learning to do, I can see that, but starting with an unknown doesn't automatically mean we will be better.
I don't trust that Larry Lyons is able to find and sign a coach better than Muller. We need to get real leadership at the top first & foremost.
Agree, if this interview doesn't scare you about our Athletic department nothing will....http://www.wglt.org/post/isu-seeks-indo ... 0#stream/0

“There are priorities on this campus and right now an indoor (facility) is not the highest priority from a campus perspective, though it might be from an athletics perspective,”

We can't even get our top priority off the ground so how in the world would we ever be able to buy out Muller or bring in a new coach?
:text-+1:
CaliRdBrd
Senior
Posts: 1047
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:24 pm

Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:57 pm

ricohill wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:59 pm
Looking at Muller's career and blown leads it seems to be this is more of a trend than I thought.

2012-13 -
- Northwestern - 10 point 2nd half lead - L 69-72
- Louisville - 8 pt halftime lead - L 66-69
- Wyoming - 19 pt lead 2nd half - L 81-67
- Wichita State - 10 pt lead with 6:41 left - L 68-67

2013-14
-Vermont - 18 pt 1st half lead - L 76-87
-Missouri State - 10 pt half time lead, 12 pt lead with 13 mins to go- L 70-78
-SIU - 2 pt lead with 29 secs - L 65-66

2014-15
-Utah State - 8 pt second half lead - L 55-60
-Indiana State - 3 pt lead with 3 to go - L 70-71
-UNI - 12 pt lead with 10 mins to go - L 53-54
- SIU - 2 pt lead with 1:37 to go - L 59-65
-UNI - MVC Tourney 14 pt halftime lead - L 60-69

2015-16
-Maryland - 5pt lead w 7 mins to go - L 66-77
- SIU - 12 point 2nd half lead - L 78-81
- Mo State - 6pt lead 46 seconds left in regulation - 4 pt lead 2 mins left in OT- L 81-84

2016-17
- Murray State 7 pt lead 3:23 to go (2PT lead 38 secs left)- L 70-73
-TCU - 7 pt second half lead - 1 pt lead w 2min to go - L 71-80
-Tulsa 7 pt lead with 5 mins to go - L 68-70
-San Fran - 4pt 2nd half lead - L 58-66

2017-18
Charleston Southern - 2pt lead w 1 min left - L 62-64
SIU - 14 pt lead with 7:50 to go - L 70-74


2018-19
Valpo - 10 pt lead 2 min - 6 pt lead 1 min - L 56-58
Mo State - Up5 with 13 secs left - L 65-66
It would be interesting to see the flipside of that...i.e. how many times we came from behind to win. My guess is that’s a much smaller sampling.
BTbird
Sophomore
Posts: 255
Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:49 pm

Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:10 pm

When it's tied with 0 time left in regulation, you can argue that Muller has done pretty well in the last 5 minutes.

"Illinois State's current seven-game overtime win streak is the second-longest active such win streak in the country."
TheTruth
Sophomore
Posts: 206
Joined: Sat Jul 22, 2017 7:37 pm

Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:46 pm

ricohill wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:59 am
TheTruth wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:53 am
redneckredbird wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:39 am
I can't argue that. I was devastated at the arena that night! I guess my point is, there is no guarantee that a new coach is a better coach. This is Dan's first gig as a head coach, he still has learning to do, I can see that, but starting with an unknown doesn't automatically mean we will be better.
I don't trust that Larry Lyons is able to find and sign a coach better than Muller. We need to get real leadership at the top first & foremost.
Agree, if this interview doesn't scare you about our Athletic department nothing will....http://www.wglt.org/post/isu-seeks-indo ... 0#stream/0

“There are priorities on this campus and right now an indoor (facility) is not the highest priority from a campus perspective, though it might be from an athletics perspective,”

We can't even get our top priority off the ground so how in the world would we ever be able to buy out Muller or bring in a new coach?
Very sobering. While those other projects are indeed higher priorities for the university, they certainly don't fall under Larry's purview and hence all that statement does is serve as deflection from his inability to make any progress toward the IPF. Larry needs to go and he needs to go yesterday!
When you have low expectations for Illinois State University, the history of its leadership looks much more palatable.
ISU FAN 1
Senior
Posts: 2377
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:04 pm

Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:02 pm

Made PTI...”Happy trails to Illinois State .... “ you know the rest.
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