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How many 4 year players under Muller

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Chi-bird
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Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:23 am

This is year 7 under Muller, and looking back I'm curious as to just how few players came here as freshmen and graduated having played their entire college career here.

I know there's been Wills and Lee...and this year we'll have Evans. But, is that it?

I'm afraid that these inconsistencies and frustrations are going to continue until Muller abandons his short-sighted recruiting philosophy of trying to annually patch together a roster of talented players (who often have baggage) with little consideration of the future. It's as if Dan recruits as if he has one year left on his contract, or that he has to find his next job within a year.

Sure, a transfer or juco player here or there is great....but the absurdity that started with the defections in Muller's 2nd year has never really stabilized, with the exception of perhaps the 2016-17 season.

Does anyone else see this as Dan's and this program's biggest flaw/area that needs improvement? I really like Dan as a person and as a mentor. I think his love and loyalty to his players is evident. He's a great scheduler...and he can land some talented players. But, our roster seems to be stuck in an annual learning-of-the-culture-while getting-to-know-my-teammates cycle. This type of roster instability can be overcome when you have great talent, character, and basketball IQ.....but there's inevitably some shortcomings that prevent us from getting over the hump.

Thus, why not bring them in earlier (as Freshmen) so they have more time to learn the culture, expectations, and each other? Why not fill your roster with players that have a track record of not changing high schools, aau programs, etc. every year? We've become program that undoubtedly have some core players who transferred/came here to run away from adversity instead of facing it head on.......and then we wonder how they're going to react to adversity here.
Redbird82
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Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:46 am

Also while they played a 5th year elsewhere, Macintosh and Hawkins had 4 yrs in the program. No coincidence that was his best team.
Flagship08
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Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:30 pm

Outside of Evans, Paris Lee and Reggie Lynch when has a high school recruit of Muller's been a top 3 player on any Redbird team? And yet we've been top 3 in the MVC almost every year. The point is Dan finds the best talent wherever it is. Bradley has lot's of 4 year players, few of them are worth bragging about. Sure we would all love more Paris Lee's, Jackie Carmichael's and Osiris Eldridge's, but so does every high major. Dan utilizes transfers because it gives us the best chance to win.
ricohill
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Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:04 pm

I guess my biggest issue in recruiting is what is our identity as a program? We don't seem to really have an offensive or defensively philosophy. So every year we go out and get random players and try to figure out how to make it work.

I would have thought going into this year we would know who we are as a team and how we were going to play. We have a core group of guys that has played a lot of college basketball. Instead, we have spent all year changing our offense and defense and still are all over the place as a team.

I don't really care where the players come from as long as we win and go to the NCAA Tournament.
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Chi-bird
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Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:10 pm

Flagship08 wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:30 pm
Outside of Evans, Paris Lee and Reggie Lynch when has a high school recruit of Muller's been a top 3 player on any Redbird team? And yet we've been top 3 in the MVC almost every year. The point is Dan finds the best talent wherever it is. Bradley has lot's of 4 year players, few of them are worth bragging about. Sure we would all love more Paris Lee's, Jackie Carmichael's and Osiris Eldridge's, but so does every high major. Dan utilizes transfers because it gives us the best chance to win.
McIntosh and Hawkins were technically out of high school. I think they were top 2. Of course, the sample size is pretty abysmal. But I would say that he definitely could do better in recruiting talent out of high school. To say that Dan utilizes transfers is an understatement....he lives and dies with them. If he keeps it up, we'll eventually catch lighting and win one of these years, but I'm afraid it will be short lived.
Reggie Redbird
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Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:30 pm

Flagship08 wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:30 pm
Outside of Evans, Paris Lee and Reggie Lynch when has a high school recruit of Muller's been a top 3 player on any Redbird team? And yet we've been top 3 in the MVC almost every year. The point is Dan finds the best talent wherever it is. Bradley has lot's of 4 year players, few of them are worth bragging about. Sure we would all love more Paris Lee's, Jackie Carmichael's and Osiris Eldridge's, but so does every high major. Dan utilizes transfers because it gives us the best chance to win.
I think you could also argue UNI and Loyola, as well as former members Creighton and Wichita have had a lot of success with four year players.

Looking back at 7 years, Muller will have had Paris, Tony, and Key as people who played four seasons here. That's less than one every two years. Hein should join that list and Gassman probably will too. I'm guessing Bruninga as well. You're still talking about an average that is at or less than 1 every 2 years.

Then you have MiKyle and Teddy who played 3, were on scholarship for 4, and left, as well as Madison whose career ended early with injury. Most people who play under Muller aren't able to make the list because they are brought in as transfers.

It just seems we're always short-handed due to transfer years, suspensions, ineligibility, etc. Perhaps that the risk we take, but it does eat up a lot of scholarships. Is last night different if we have an extra guy or two? Probably. But when you have 8 guys, some foul trouble, and guys just not playing well, you don't have many options to work with.

Of your statement above that I bolded, I think it's more that he utilizes transfers because that is his plan to give us the best chance to win. That's not a guarantee though that it does.
Redbird60451
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Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:44 pm

I think even with 4 year players, the success will be short lived. Really thinking about having 3/4 scholarships one year and hitting on all of them, then following that up with another 2 and hitting on those two. And following it up year after year, in this conference. If it were that easy, they wouldn't call the Thursday games the Bradley Invitational. I wonder if HCDM isn't just out in front of what College Basketball will become, utilizing transfers and keeping us relevant in conference where you know you will likely not get an at large bid, no matter how much you win and the teams you beat. We seem to be top 4 and in the hunt every year. I think if we didn't crap our pants on Sunday's a couple of times over the past 10 years, we probably would look at things differently.
BTbird
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Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:16 pm

Reggie Redbird wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:30 pm
Flagship08 wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:30 pm
Outside of Evans, Paris Lee and Reggie Lynch when has a high school recruit of Muller's been a top 3 player on any Redbird team? And yet we've been top 3 in the MVC almost every year. The point is Dan finds the best talent wherever it is. Bradley has lot's of 4 year players, few of them are worth bragging about. Sure we would all love more Paris Lee's, Jackie Carmichael's and Osiris Eldridge's, but so does every high major. Dan utilizes transfers because it gives us the best chance to win.


Looking back at 7 years, Muller will have had Paris, Tony, and Key as people who played four seasons here. That's less than one every two years. Hein should join that list and Gassman probably will too. I'm guessing Bruninga as well. You're still talking about an average that is at or less than 1 every 2 years.
I don't disagree that we need more 4 year players in the future however, your numbers are a bit skewed. DM was hired in May so that freshman class was already in the books. Dans first freshman recruiting class would have started during his second year as coach and they would have graduated after his 5th year. I think there is 4 on the roster today that will likely be 4 year players but only time will tell. Your point still holds though. we haven't had as many as you would think.

I'm too lazy to look up how many but it seems he has had his share of 3 year players which if my math is correct, gives us more continuity than a 2 year player.
SgtHulka
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Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:19 pm

We often end up with an All Newcomer, but we rarely end up with an All Freshman on our roster. Without researching I'm guessing he's 50/50 at best on 4 year potential players even staying 4 years, let alone excelling.

I've accepted the previous slow starts we've had as part of bringing in 6-7 new faces every bleeding season as part of getting that group to gel, and in the past he has been able to get them to gel at some point. But this was the year we started off with a core of returning players and should have hit the ground running. Instead we get a few good games here, a few bad games there. No consistency, other than we continue to lack consistency once again. That ain't gonna change. I honestly see no sign it will ever change under HCDM, if it's been 7 years without it.

I hope this bunch throws us for a loop and gels in the Lou and wins the damn thing. Maybe a 3/4 court shot down 2 from Hein at the buzzer. I'm all in with that. I'll be there, hope I get to celebrate instead of murder sorrow.
bb fan
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Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:22 pm

Good stuff, Sgt.
Santa Cason
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Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:32 pm

Yep. Very well said, Sarge.
Racine Bird 3813
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Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:44 pm

ricohill wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:04 pm
I guess my biggest issue in recruiting is what is our identity as a program? We don't seem to really have an offensive or defensively philosophy. So every year we go out and get random players and try to figure out how to make it work.

I would have thought going into this year we would know who we are as a team and how we were going to play. We have a core group of guys that has played a lot of college basketball. Instead, we have spent all year changing our offense and defense and still are all over the place as a team.

I don't really care where the players come from as long as we win and go to the NCAA Tournament.
Yes. Exactly my thoughts to.
ISU FAN 1
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Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:53 pm

Hein will be a 8th year senior in a few years. Book it.
SgtHulka
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Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:28 pm

ISU FAN 1 wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:53 pm
Hein will be a 8th year senior in a few years. Book it.
Image
Red Rocker
Freshman
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Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:28 pm

Dan is a much better recruiter than developer. Donewald was a master developer.

For Dan, I don’t care if he picks up transfers and Jucos as long as they stay to the end. We have lost a lot before we needed too. Another year of Teddy and McIntosh would have been nice.

The blown leads and inconsistency is HCDMs trademark. It has to stop and I would suggest that the best way to do that is to get a true PG who can run an offense and lead a team. Its kind of amazing Dan doesn’t see that. He finally figured out that 250 lbs big men are better than the 180 lbs version, so maybe he gets a true floor general someday who can keep some control on the court. Lee was that type, although they did blow leads then too.

Zach and Key can shoot, they just can’t run the team on the court.

Bring us a PG who can run a tight ship.
HT59
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Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:28 pm

Chi-bird wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:23 am
This is year 7 under Muller, and looking back I'm curious as to just how few players came here as freshmen and graduated having played their entire college career here.

I know there's been Wills and Lee...and this year we'll have Evans. But, is that it?

I'm afraid that these inconsistencies and frustrations are going to continue until Muller abandons his short-sighted recruiting philosophy of trying to annually patch together a roster of talented players (who often have baggage) with little consideration of the future. It's as if Dan recruits as if he has one year left on his contract, or that he has to find his next job within a year.

Sure, a transfer or juco player here or there is great....but the absurdity that started with the defections in Muller's 2nd year has never really stabilized, with the exception of perhaps the 2016-17 season.

Does anyone else see this as Dan's and this program's biggest flaw/area that needs improvement? I really like Dan as a person and as a mentor. I think his love and loyalty to his players is evident. He's a great scheduler...and he can land some talented players. But, our roster seems to be stuck in an annual learning-of-the-culture-while getting-to-know-my-teammates cycle. This type of roster instability can be overcome when you have great talent, character, and basketball IQ.....but there's inevitably some shortcomings that prevent us from getting over the hump.

Thus, why not bring them in earlier (as Freshmen) so they have more time to learn the culture, expectations, and each other? Why not fill your roster with players that have a track record of not changing high schools, aau programs, etc. every year? We've become program that undoubtedly have some core players who transferred/came here to run away from adversity instead of facing it head on.......and then we wonder how they're going to react to adversity here.
Add in the change of assistant coaches and you have a real mess.
WoodlandWarrior
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Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:20 pm

I completely agree on the lack of identity comment. Think back to SIU with Jamal Tatum and the successful Wichita State teams. There was a toughness associated with those teams that we sorely lack.
DWRedbird
Sophomore
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Thu Feb 07, 2019 7:01 am

I agree with @ricohill that the lack of identity is my biggest concern. We seem to rarely known who we are to start the year, and then with the roster turnover spend much of the early season trying to figure it out, before we finally lock in on something and ride that to a second place finish in the MVC tourney.

I also agree with @SgtHulka that I thought this year we would finally have it together and know who we were at the beginning of the year, especially with who we had coming back. Instead we've been this inconsistent mess. It's probably the most disappointed I've been in a Redbird team in a long time.
Adunk33
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Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:48 am

DWRedbird wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 7:01 am
I agree with @ricohill that the lack of identity is my biggest concern. We seem to rarely known who we are to start the year, and then with the roster turnover spend much of the early season trying to figure it out, before we finally lock in on something and ride that to a second place finish in the MVC tourney.
Muller has an idea of what he wants to do, but he isn't bone headed enough to not deviate from it. When Muller came here he wanted to create the next VCU. He wanted to press every possession, and push the ball into tempo. He just didn't have the guys to do that. Then when he brought in his first class of Lynch, Lee, Hunter, Knight, and Wills, he saw there too where that you have to be willing to adjust to what guys the guys you have bring to the table. To me, Muller has began to get the best players he can and play to their strengths. I also believe over the last two recruiting classes of Taylor, Elijah, Cope, Ike and Chas followed by Rey, Dedric, Jaycee, Ilijah, and Keith - he is starting to get away from potential personality issues. All of these guys appear to want to play for each other and won't have off the court issues. It just seems like Muller is sick of dealing with that stuff and is not taking the risks that he used to. I think next year's team will really miss Phil and maybe Key.... but that's it

Muller's willingness to adjust to the team's strength is crucial and has been seen especially this season. Remember in the noncon when we were trying to outscore every team and get out in transition? It led to a ton of turnovers and bad shots. Come conference time, we slowed it down and have played generally better with the exception of a few games. Muller found out this is a team who can't get out in transition well so he nixed the idea.

I would love to be able to have player retention like Northern Iowa has. There is something in the water up there that allows them to keep players. Muller recruits jucos and d1 guys because he never wants to be in rebuilding mode. Even when he has had mass exodus after a season, most of the time he has recovered to where he was the season before and is competitive come STL.
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isuquinndog
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Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:53 am

Red Rocker wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:28 pm
Dan is a much better recruiter than developer. Donewald was a master developer.

For Dan, I don’t care if he picks up transfers and Jucos as long as they stay to the end. We have lost a lot before we needed too. Another year of Teddy and McIntosh would have been nice.

The blown leads and inconsistency is HCDMs trademark. It has to stop and I would suggest that the best way to do that is to get a true PG who can run an offense and lead a team. Its kind of amazing Dan doesn’t see that. He finally figured out that 250 lbs big men are better than the 180 lbs version, so maybe he gets a true floor general someday who can keep some control on the court. Lee was that type, although they did blow leads then too.

Zach and Key can shoot, they just can’t run the team on the court.

Bring us a PG who can run a tight ship.
He had a PG. Then he realized or was told he could make money doing this rather than being thousands of miles away from home and getting paid next to nothing. EC leaving really set this program back. I fully believe that. And I don't think Dan saw it coming. Not like he had a monster freshman year, he was hurt.
LET'S WIN THIS GAME!
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