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vs Valparaiso, 2/5, 7:00 PM, ESPN+

The place to talk Redbird Men's Basketball
Adunk33
Senior
Posts: 2094
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:08 am

Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:56 am

There is a lot of warranted negativity on here. I have no issue with it, as I too did something last night I thought I would never do. I left at halftime and did not turn the game back on. The team had no fight and it showed. I am disappointed in myself for thinking this time would be different. Big win-let down. This. is Redbird basketball.

This morning I went and listened to the post game radio interview and press conference. Ultimately, Muller chose who is on his team, but you can't teach drive, determination, motivation, or maturity. Lets say you are the parent of a college student who goes out drinking multiple nights of the week, and maybe neglects their studies. You can tell your kid all you want that "hey, this life style is going to catch up to you," but ultimately it is their decision to do it or not. You can lead the horse to water but can't make them drink. In the post-game Muller mentioned that he saw and felt it in the pregame that the players were taking Valpo lightly. Muller and the other coaches talked to the players about it, and they didn't respond. Copeland and Key even mentioned post-game that the coaches tried to tell them and the team didn't listen or believe them. Like I said, I'm not completely defending Muller here but what more can he do to make sure the team is mentally strong (other than recruit new guys, which I feel the guys sitting out are an upgrade, mentally)?

The Birds played horrible, but you also have to credit Valpo who made shots they haven't made all year, and their guards played very good, aggressive defense. The silver lining is that we were probably peaking too early and this could help us reset for the final stretch in the MVC.
ISU FAN 1
Senior
Posts: 2419
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:04 pm

Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:10 am

AgGrad88 wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:21 am
Holy shit... I passed up going to the Illinois game last night to watch the ISU game. What a mistake that was. I left RBA five minutes into the second half. It was clear to me after that five minutes and three straight turn overs that the team made zero adjustments and came out with the same zoned out mind set they played the previous 20 minutes with. Some take aways…

- This is the most inconsistent team I think I have ever watched, no mental toughness whatsoever
- Dan lacks control and respect from players, coaches, and fans
- Keith fisher was the only one on the bench (including coaches) that acted bothered by getting waxed by a mediocre valpo squad

Sorry Dan, you can only give away so much free pizza.... if you and your boys play like that anymore this year you couldn't pay people to come watch that sorry excuse for a basketball game. I was EMBARASSED to be wearing red last night.
Dan drops off the coaches in play and predicted to move up list.

The Birds fall behind Illini for best team in Illinois.

That all happened after last night’s performance.
RedbirdNation24
Freshman
Posts: 110
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:57 am

Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:18 am

There's a lot to like about Muller. Scheduling, recruiting, overall respectability as a man. But I've seen enough. Consistently having let downs after big wins is a major marker of poor coaching. He schedules well enough for an at-large, but we can't win the games because his in-game coaching is just bad.

Anyone have any insight as to why MY was on the bench the last couple minutes? That's what put us away. Fayne fouled out, so MY was the only one who could matchup with their big man. Dan takes him out, and guess what? They go right down low three possessions in a row and attack Chastain. We went from down 7 to down 14 in the blink of an eye.

I'm at a loss. I've seen enough of Dan Muller as head coach. I wish him well, and thank him for his time here, but if he is able to get this team to the dance, it will be in spite of him, not because of him. Unfortunately, I don't think this athletic department has the balls to let him go, so I guess I'll have to get used to it and hope we win the big one in STL once.
JHBird
Senior
Posts: 774
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:40 pm

Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:28 am

TIMMY wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:33 am
Santa Cason wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:33 am
I’ll wait to actually see next year’s team before I make any assumption.
Why would you want to do that when you can assume the worst?

If the group coming back has some heart and plays defense they can be better than this. Like someone said earlier, get some paint presence to go along with Rey and Fish.

I just don't understand how this senior group came away from last year and seemingly learned nothing. You would think watching Loyola's run would make something click. It baffles me. MTXE they are not.
For them to better, I feel like we'll need at least two Juco's that can make a scoring impact. I'm wondering how Boyd is looking in practice? Maybe he can be our true PG.
gobirds85
Junior
Posts: 606
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:45 pm

Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:32 am

RedbirdNation24 wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:18 am
There's a lot to like about Muller. Scheduling, recruiting, overall respectability as a man. But I've seen enough. Consistently having let downs after big wins is a major marker of poor coaching. He schedules well enough for an at-large, but we can't win the games because his in-game coaching is just bad.

Anyone have any insight as to why MY was on the bench the last couple minutes? That's what put us away. Fayne fouled out, so MY was the only one who could matchup with their big man. Dan takes him out, and guess what? They go right down low three possessions in a row and attack Chastain. We went from down 7 to down 14 in the blink of an eye.

I'm at a loss. I've seen enough of Dan Muller as head coach. I wish him well, and thank him for his time here, but if he is able to get this team to the dance, it will be in spite of him, not because of him. Unfortunately, I don't think this athletic department has the balls to let him go, so I guess I'll have to get used to it and hope we win the big one in STL once.
It's more about the bucks than the balls that will determine if and when ISU releases Muller.

And a tip of the hat to Larry Lyons for giving HCDM the extension that has tied our hands for at least two to three more years. Sarcasm.
Last edited by gobirds85 on Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
AgGrad88
Freshman
Posts: 28
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:50 pm

Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:35 am

What does a coach have to do or say to get these players who apparently have the mental capacity and toughness of a third grader to come out and put it all on the floor EVERY game no matter what team they are playing. They need to come out thinking they are playing Kentucky every night! It was all over the press that this Valpo team has lost their top outside shooter...… they don't have players that can hit behind the arc...…. they have loss 4 straight MVC games.... Our dumb ass players read into all this bullshit and decide to come out with a blah attitude thinking that this one will be easy. It happens every damn time, play good teams well and bad teams bad. Muller is on crack for putting Milik on the bench, swallow your pride and put the best product on the court.. The coach is just as weak as this team is.
Brick
Sophomore
Posts: 414
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:51 pm

Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:57 am

AgGrad88 wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:35 am
What does a coach have to do or say to get these players who apparently have the mental capacity and toughness of a third grader to come out and put it all on the floor EVERY game no matter what team they are playing. They need to come out thinking they are playing Kentucky every night! It was all over the press that this Valpo team has lost their top outside shooter...… they don't have players that can hit behind the arc...…. they have loss 4 straight MVC games.... Our dumb ass players read into all this bullshit and decide to come out with a blah attitude thinking that this one will be easy. It happens every damn time, play good teams well and bad teams bad. Muller is on crack for putting Milik on the bench, swallow your pride and put the best product on the court.. The coach is just as weak as this team is.
You can teach Xs and Os but you cannot teach heart! When the most fire you have on a team is sitting on the bench you have problems. I still think Copeland is doing pretty well at the point learning a new position. I know he had some turnovers last night but also some assists. He generally took good shots too. He was our best player last night. Our glaring weakness is a physical presence in the
Middle as exemplified by Milik Being the only one strong enough to guard other post players. Rey is strong enough but too early in the learning phase. Phil at 220lbs is simply not strong enough. Should be a 4 not a 5. Finally our lack of depth is killing us. I hate to say it but we do need Hein back if only to spell people. Even more important we need JJ to provide another scoring threat when our best players get double teamed. Chastain gives you hustle and heart but he HAS to
Be a scoring threat for the same reason we need JJ back
BirdsEyeView
Freshman
Posts: 92
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:43 pm

Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:18 am

As a high level coach in another sport, this season has to be aging Dan Muller way faster than his previous 7 years. He will be turning gray or losing all of his hair very quickly. I feel bad for him.

ADunk said it right "You can lead the horse to water but can't make them drink."

You can talk until you are blue in the face, but it's on the players for last night. I left at the under 16, right after Fisher laid into them. Did not look back.

Let's just avoid Thursday....

@Missouri St.
@UNI
vs Bradley
@ Indy St.

Uh Oh.
DWRedbird
Sophomore
Posts: 468
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:37 pm

Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:30 am

RedbirdNation24 wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:18 am
Anyone have any insight as to why MY was on the bench the last couple minutes? That's what put us away. Fayne fouled out, so MY was the only one who could matchup with their big man. Dan takes him out, and guess what? They go right down low three possessions in a row and attack Chastain. We went from down 7 to down 14 in the blink of an eye.
For what it's worth Yarbs had no chance guarding Smits either. Smits has the exact same height advantage on Yarbs as he does on Chas. The reason Yarbs works well guarding Krutwig is largely because Krutwig isn't a long big man. He is strong with good foot work and an ability to pass out of the post, but if you front him well and get the passer to have to throw over you Krutwig doesn't catch it right. With Smits he is long and more mobile, fronting him isn't as much of an option as you can just throw it up and he can catch and once he catches it, he's got a good inside game. Once Phil was out and Rey proved he couldn't guard him, they had the advantage no matter who we put on Smits.

As to why he was on the bench, from what I see it's more about Yarbs himself than it is about any sort of conflict between him and Muller. When Yarbs plays poorly he mentally implodes and then spends the rest of the game in his head. If you watch him, he starts forcing up bad shots, dribbling too much, getting frustrated, and he stops talking to teammates entirely. When we went on our run, we got it down to four, Yarbs came down through up a terrible 3, then got frustrated and didn't get back on D quick enough blew his assignment and the guy scored, pretty much killing the momentum. Muller pulled him because at that point he was just going to be detrimental to himself. I'm not saying Muller is perfect, or without blame for the game or anything, but there isn't some secret feud between him and Yarbs that causes Muller to sit him. He sits him because Yarbs gets in his own way...
Redbird Alum 2004
Senior
Posts: 862
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:45 pm

Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:35 am

Can I fast forward to next season? I don't know if we will be good but at least with Fisher and Chastain I know at least two guys will play with heart and effort every night.
stats
Sophomore
Posts: 217
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:52 pm

Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:45 am

BirdsEyeView wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:18 am
You can talk until you are blue in the face, but it's on the players for last night. I left at the under 16, right after Fisher laid into them. Did not look back.
I wish he would talk until he is blue in the face. At Bradley, he said he said very little at halftime because it is on the players. After the game, he said he just told them how bad they were. Then he went on the radio and said too much, saying players that are still learning in February must be immature and dumb. (All players should always be learning.) There are some coaches players will run through a wall for and other coaches that players have conditioned themselves to tune them out.

Fisher went crazy when we were down by 23. Copeland wanted to strangle him. We went on a run after that and cut it to 7. Copeland played some of his best basketball after that. I'm guessing Dan rarely had a coach have to motivate him to get him to play hard. If a coach thinks the seniors have failed, it is his job to find a way to make it work. Constantly throwing the seniors under the bus does no good.
DoubleDeuce
Sophomore
Posts: 488
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:46 am

Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:48 am

Redbird Alum 2004 wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:35 am
Can I fast forward to next season? I don't know if we will be good but at least with Fisher and Chastain I know at least two guys will play with heart and effort every night.
I understand the sentiment but I'm not giving up that this team will figure out the consistent effort they need. Key pointed out in Benson's game article that the coaching staff has been trying to drive the message home but it's up to the seniors to finally take ownership and be the leaders. Philly is emotionally mature brings it everyday...I hope he takes the reigns of this team leads them to a title in St. Louis.

This from the guy that can't remember to wear his lucky floppy hat every game.
Last edited by DoubleDeuce on Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
RedbirdNation24
Freshman
Posts: 110
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:57 am

Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:48 am

DWRedbird wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:30 am
RedbirdNation24 wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:18 am
Anyone have any insight as to why MY was on the bench the last couple minutes? That's what put us away. Fayne fouled out, so MY was the only one who could matchup with their big man. Dan takes him out, and guess what? They go right down low three possessions in a row and attack Chastain. We went from down 7 to down 14 in the blink of an eye.
For what it's worth Yarbs had no chance guarding Smits either. Smits has the exact same height advantage on Yarbs as he does on Chas. The reason Yarbs works well guarding Krutwig is largely because Krutwig isn't a long big man. He is strong with good foot work and an ability to pass out of the post, but if you front him well and get the passer to have to throw over you Krutwig doesn't catch it right. With Smits he is long and more mobile, fronting him isn't as much of an option as you can just throw it up and he can catch and once he catches it, he's got a good inside game. Once Phil was out and Rey proved he couldn't guard him, they had the advantage no matter who we put on Smits.

As to why he was on the bench, from what I see it's more about Yarbs himself than it is about any sort of conflict between him and Muller. When Yarbs plays poorly he mentally implodes and then spends the rest of the game in his head. If you watch him, he starts forcing up bad shots, dribbling too much, getting frustrated, and he stops talking to teammates entirely. When we went on our run, we got it down to four, Yarbs came down through up a terrible 3, then got frustrated and didn't get back on D quick enough blew his assignment and the guy scored, pretty much killing the momentum. Muller pulled him because at that point he was just going to be detrimental to himself. I'm not saying Muller is perfect, or without blame for the game or anything, but there isn't some secret feud between him and Yarbs that causes Muller to sit him. He sits him because Yarbs gets in his own way...
I see your point. And I agree about his attitude and getting in his head. But he has been guarding Smits most of the game, and doing a good job. He’s much more physical than Chastain, and stronger. It wasn’t about the height difference as much. If you watched the action down low as soon as MY came out, they saw the mismatch and went straight to Smits without hesitation. Gasman came over to help, and still couldn’t effect Smits.

Bottom line is, we needed him in the game at that point if we were going to have any chance, and the fact that Muller didn’t see that is concerning, and to me, emblematic of bigger problems when it comes to understanding the game and making necessary adjustments in the flow of the game.
RedbirdNation24
Freshman
Posts: 110
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:57 am

Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:52 am

This “you can lead a horse to water, but cant make it drink” mentality doesn’t really apply here IMO. However unfair it seems, the onus is on the coach when it comes to motivating his players, and also recruiting guys that are coachable. Dan has shown he can bring in top notch talent in this league. However, every year it seems (with the exception of 16-17) he has failed to have these guys buy in. And when that becomes a trend, it can’t fall on anyone’s shoulders but the head coach.
Redbird Alum 2004
Senior
Posts: 862
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:45 pm

Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:52 am

DoubleDeuce wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:48 am
Redbird Alum 2004 wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:35 am
Can I fast forward to next season? I don't know if we will be good but at least with Fisher and Chastain I know at least two guys will play with heart and effort every night.
I understand the sentiment but I'm not giving up that this team will figure out the consistent effort they need. Key pointed out in Benson's game article that the coaching staff has been trying to drive the message home but it's up to the seniors to finally take ownership and be the leaders. Philly is emotionally mature brings it everyday...I hope he takes the reigns of this team leads them to a title in St. Louis.

This from the guy that can't remember to wear his lucky floppy hat every game.
Fingers crossed. I do think this is the team that will put together 3 great games and end the curse. It will be a great end to a frustrating season. I still remember Milik after the kids last year. He was in agony. I am hoping the season gets real for the seniors when they get down there.
CaliRdBrd
Senior
Posts: 1088
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:24 pm

Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:02 am

I disagree with the many comments that you can’t teach maturity, passion, or desire. Ask Lou Holtz or John Wooden (if he was still alive) what they think about that philosophy. I mean, is that what the best coaches do. If Muller can’t do that, what can he do?
bb fan
Senior
Posts: 917
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:44 am

Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:04 am

Last night was awful. A big letdown. And surprising to me, as we have seemed to finally have it together over the last several games. I am back to not knowing what to expect game to game like I was earlier in the season.

Regarding St. Louis, I think it benefits us that the games are all in a row. IF we are playing like we have up until last night. No gaps in the tourney games. No breaks. It seems this team's player leadership is inconsistent. I don't think this is all on the coaches. Sometimes that is just the personality set of the team. Athletes, businsess, whatever. You can blame HCDM for recruiting these guys in the first place, I guess. But those traits are hard to predict during that process. We are more than capable of putting 3 games together in early March. As long as we have it together right at that time. We shall see.
Last edited by bb fan on Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
CaliRdBrd
Senior
Posts: 1088
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:24 pm

Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:05 am

This year is a lost cause.
Maybe time to get Rey some serious minutes so he can be prepared to hit the ground running next season?
redbirdron1
Freshman
Posts: 122
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:33 am

Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:06 am

Guys, Muller is smart enough to know he needs MY in the game to win.

The problem is ego - he's gonna show MY the way, the path and the truth.......

Dan - we've only got x games left in the season and MY ain't gonna change. YOu better
just leave him on the court for max minutes. Take a time out and chew his butt if he needs
to refocus but for Gosh Sakes - when has this team ever done anything remotely well while
MY sits???

The boys were all lethargic last night. Maybe just another crap performance that we can recover
from but Dan sure doesn't help the situation with his Bobby Knight imitation.
ricohill
Senior
Posts: 1420
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:00 pm

Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:13 am

CaliRdBrd wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:02 am
I disagree with the many comments that you can’t teach maturity, passion, or desire. Ask Lou Holtz or John Wooden (if he was still alive) what they think about that philosophy. I mean, is that what the best coaches do. If Muller can’t do that, what can he do?
Matt Lottich had it last night. He was fired up and so were his players. Valpo is a Thursday night team with their roster and injuries, but sitting in 3rd place with 2 wins over ISU.

Outside of the 16-17 season, every year with Muller is a roller coaster. This team returned 90% of its scoring and still hasn't put it together. Maybe they make a run in St. Louis, but if they don't I'm not sure how a brand new roster with guys from San Jose State and Eastern Kentucky (that went 15-46 combined last year) and Ndiaye that Dan says isn't ready yet put together a 25 win season next year?
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