TEAMS IN BOWLS THAT WOULDNT BEATMOST MVC TEAMS

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Chi-bird
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Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:18 am

bb fan wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 1:48 pm
Here is where Illinois State would be today if we had been working as hard as NIU on football over the decades.

If the roles had been reversed, there would be somebody on some message board asking what being FBS has done for ISU's brand. And still, nobody will be able to answer the question. Or at least willing to.

I appreciate Fourthandshorts' excellent post, though. He at least pointed out clear fact. After all of these years looking at what ISU and NIU have done respectively, we drew nearly the exact same number of fans for our football games this year. ISU drew 5x the number of fans for Men's basketball as NIU has.
I'll take a stab at it. FBS has helped Northern Illinois distance itself from Western Illinois, Eastern Illinois, and Southern Illinois in terms of enrollment.

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StLRedbird
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Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:14 pm

Chi-bird wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:18 am
bb fan wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 1:48 pm
Here is where Illinois State would be today if we had been working as hard as NIU on football over the decades.

If the roles had been reversed, there would be somebody on some message board asking what being FBS has done for ISU's brand. And still, nobody will be able to answer the question. Or at least willing to.

I appreciate Fourthandshorts' excellent post, though. He at least pointed out clear fact. After all of these years looking at what ISU and NIU have done respectively, we drew nearly the exact same number of fans for our football games this year. ISU drew 5x the number of fans for Men's basketball as NIU has.
I'll take a stab at it. FBS has helped Northern Illinois distance itself from Western Illinois, Eastern Illinois, and Southern Illinois in terms of enrollment.
So, the question is what's FBS done for NIUs brand, right? In order to answer, you have to have some opinion of what NIUs situation would be if it hadn't made the decision to go 1-A and eventually FBS, right? I think the likeliest answer is their athletics would be in the Summit/MVFC. If that's the case then their brand is MUCH better than it would have been otherwise. But I'm sure their admins were doing some serious soul searching in their Big West daze.

Hard telling how much success they would have had in I-AA/FCS, but I think it's reasonable to assume their football program would have looked a lot like UNIs, given their emphasis on it over bball. That is, one of the most highly regarded in the division. YMMV.

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isuquinndog
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Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:05 pm

fourthandshort wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:21 pm

That is my read and I largely agree with point he is making .. even if it strayed a bit .. shocking that we had thread drift .. Quinnie needs to step up his programming to prevent this !!! :D
You have no idea how close I have been to just making a "Discuss ISU to FBS here" thread and pinned it.
LET'S WIN THIS GAME!

Reggie Redbird
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Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:22 pm

Chi-bird wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:18 am
bb fan wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 1:48 pm
Here is where Illinois State would be today if we had been working as hard as NIU on football over the decades.

If the roles had been reversed, there would be somebody on some message board asking what being FBS has done for ISU's brand. And still, nobody will be able to answer the question. Or at least willing to.

I appreciate Fourthandshorts' excellent post, though. He at least pointed out clear fact. After all of these years looking at what ISU and NIU have done respectively, we drew nearly the exact same number of fans for our football games this year. ISU drew 5x the number of fans for Men's basketball as NIU has.
I'll take a stab at it. FBS has helped Northern Illinois distance itself from Western Illinois, Eastern Illinois, and Southern Illinois in terms of enrollment.
A good guess but it was an intentional strategy by NIU completely separate from sports that doesn’t seem to be working for them. It’s a slippery slope when you open the admission floodgate and take more students who you would not normally enroll.

Their Orange Bowl appearance and other good seasons provide a lot of advertising, but I’m not sure that is a boost that has sustained to this day.

bb fan
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Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:10 pm

Fourth, many think jumping to the MAC would be determental to our athletics program overall, anytime we would do it. Again, look at NIU's men's basketball program. How do you feel about driving to Cleveland to play the postseason BB tournament in a dark, dank, empty with the upper bowl curtained off Quicken Loans Arena....

Also an interesting factoid, at one point in the early 90's, NIU wanted in the MVC. The MVC was not interested in NIU at the time. Ponder that one...

And I dunno, but I surmise it would not have mattered much to NIU's brand or the overall state of their U whether or not they were FBS or FCS. Really could they have performed much worse as a U as they have over the last 5 - 10 years?

Redbird Ray
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Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:31 pm

Let’s get one thing straight, NIU’s enrollment issues are irrespective of anything athletically that NIU or ISU has done.

Short of getting an invitation to a P5 conference, there’s probably no rational justification for ISU going FBS. That said, as a fan of ISU athletics and of ISU the institution, it bothers me to be associated with EIU and WIU on the athletics side when we have much stronger enrollment, alumni, and local businesses networks.

The bball attendance comparisons to NIU are meaningless to me, as we both play in 1 bid leagues now. The level of play between the two leagues is now marginal, and frankly, so is the attendance. We’re talking 4-5k in an MVC arena vs 2-3k in a MAC arena, who cares?

The fball attendance argument also needs some context. ISU plays all of its home games on Saturdays. NIU plays at least 2 Home games per year during the week. If this were the case at ISU, our average would likely be down 2-3k.

Ultimately, I would love to see ISU in a conference like the AAC, and I don’t really believe an investment in FBS would have any meaningful returns until ISU could reach that level. But I also know that we would have to go on a WSU like run on the bball side before getting an invite straight to the AAC, so a spin in the MAC or CUSA would be inevitable for ISU, should it go FBS.

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Chi-bird
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Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:45 pm

I'm going on record as saying I am happy where we are at for now. Mainly because I don't love the direction of FBS in terms of the current bowl model. I still like the bowl model, just think that there are about 5-6 too many bowl games and that there should be more matchups of P5 vs non P5.

I don't want to see us play Eastern Michigan on a Tuesday night on ESPN2 or ESPN3. Give me Saturday games in Normal with a chance to make the playoffs (although a little wattered down) and a chance to make it to Frisco.

bb fan
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Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:07 pm

I agree the midweek games in the MAC because of TV hurts their attendance a lot. So it makes it revelent because being in the MAC and having to cowtow to playing there games hurts them. I don't want that for our program. Like other posters, I want the Saturday games, so another strike against the MAC.

I think comparing BB attendance is also justified. Playing in the MAC takes away some traditional instate rivals we have more of an indentity with. It will hurt our BB attendance. The investment that NIU has had to make in FBS no doubt has taken resources away from mens BB and other sports, hence the horrible attendance their BB program has.

CaliRdBrd
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Sun Dec 31, 2017 10:43 am

Let’s set the bar high. Big 12 would be an ideal fit. How do we get there?

MadBird
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Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:19 am

CaliRdBrd wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 10:43 am
Let’s set the bar high. Big 12 would be an ideal fit. How do we get there?
I'll cherry pick this list just for starters, but also include the link to the entire article which has lots of lists of various revenues and expenses. So, for starters, our donors have to dig much much much deeper!!

Athletic donor contributions

1. Texas: $37,633,031

2. Oklahoma State: $37,027,350

3. Oklahoma: $33,363,102

4. Kansas: $28,952,472

5. Texas Tech: $27,627,158

6. West Virginia: $19,689,619

7. Kansas State: $18,492,032

8. Iowa State: $17,402,605

http://www.profootballweekly.com/2015/0 ... e/afyao2c/

Reggie Redbird
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Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:22 pm

MadBird wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:19 am
CaliRdBrd wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 10:43 am
Let’s set the bar high. Big 12 would be an ideal fit. How do we get there?
I'll cherry pick this list just for starters, but also include the link to the entire article which has lots of lists of various revenues and expenses. So, for starters, our donors have to dig much much much deeper!!

Athletic donor contributions

1. Texas: $37,633,031

2. Oklahoma State: $37,027,350

3. Oklahoma: $33,363,102

4. Kansas: $28,952,472

5. Texas Tech: $27,627,158

6. West Virginia: $19,689,619

7. Kansas State: $18,492,032

8. Iowa State: $17,402,605

http://www.profootballweekly.com/2015/0 ... e/afyao2c/
It would be amazing for our annual university giving to be in the top half of that list, not just athletic giving. Unless we can boost our collective annual athletic giving about $15 mil a year, we can’t even start to go down this path.

We’d have to have enough to fund a new women’s sports program, many more scholarships on both sides (university can’t afford to do waivers), facility renovations, coaching salaries, recruiting budget, all the support positions it takes to raise a program. Even if we could find a couple boosters willing to give $2-3 mil a year for the foreseeable future, we’re still short in everything it would take. The one thing about getting into those leagues though is a share of the media money and increased NCAA payouts for all the tournament revenues and then FBS bowl money.

Metamoron
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Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:59 pm

CaliRdBrd wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 10:43 am
Let’s set the bar high. Big 12 would be an ideal fit. How do we get there?
I think this is the right question. One of the “7 habits of highly effective people” is
BEGIN WITH THE END IN MIND

So lay out a plan on how to get there. It should be something like

1. Dominate MVC basketball conference
2. Compete in FCS playoffs each year
3. Grow football attendance to XXK
4. Raise $XXM for facility improvements
5. Move to FBS conference such as AAC or XXX
6. Increase annual athletic giving by $XM per year
7. Make NCAA basketball tourney each year
8. Win new conference championship in football
9. Raise annual athletic giving by ANOTHER $XM each year
10. Accept invitation to Big 12 conference


I don’t know what most of the Xs are in the above. I would hope that there is some sort plan like this somewhere, even if it is not formal. It may be hard to talk about now too publicly but there needs to be some plan like this so that we have a roadmap to our success.

The point is, if you are trying to go to Chicago, you need to get on I55 north and not Illinois 9 east.

CaliRdBrd
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Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:42 pm

Metamoron wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:59 pm
CaliRdBrd wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 10:43 am
Let’s set the bar high. Big 12 would be an ideal fit. How do we get there?
I think this is the right question. One of the “7 habits of highly effective people” is
BEGIN WITH THE END IN MIND

So lay out a plan on how to get there. It should be something like

1. Dominate MVC basketball conference
2. Compete in FCS playoffs each year
3. Grow football attendance to XXK
4. Raise $XXM for facility improvements
5. Move to FBS conference such as AAC or XXX
6. Increase annual athletic giving by $XM per year
7. Make NCAA basketball tourney each year
8. Win new conference championship in football
9. Raise annual athletic giving by ANOTHER $XM each year
10. Accept invitation to Big 12 conference


I don’t know what most of the Xs are in the above. I would hope that there is some sort plan like this somewhere, even if it is not formal. It may be hard to talk about now too publicly but there needs to be some plan like this so that we have a roadmap to our success.

The point is, if you are trying to go to Chicago, you need to get on I55 north and not Illinois 9 east.
Love this.
Question, if we completely dominate the Valley in hoops with a string of successful runs (sweet 16 or better) is that enough for the Big 12 to start looking at us? Or do we need a run of success in both football and basketball?

fourthandshort
Senior
Posts: 865
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Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:57 pm

Metamoron wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:59 pm
CaliRdBrd wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 10:43 am
Let’s set the bar high. Big 12 would be an ideal fit. How do we get there?
I think this is the right question. One of the “7 habits of highly effective people” is
BEGIN WITH THE END IN MIND

So lay out a plan on how to get there. It should be something like

1. Dominate MVC basketball conference
2. Compete in FCS playoffs each year
3. Grow football attendance to XXK
4. Raise $XXM for facility improvements
5. Move to FBS conference such as AAC or XXX
6. Increase annual athletic giving by $XM per year
7. Make NCAA basketball tourney each year
8. Win new conference championship in football
9. Raise annual athletic giving by ANOTHER $XM each year
10. Accept invitation to Big 12 conference


I don’t know what most of the Xs are in the above. I would hope that there is some sort plan like this somewhere, even if it is not formal. It may be hard to talk about now too publicly but there needs to be some plan like this so that we have a roadmap to our success.

The point is, if you are trying to go to Chicago, you need to get on I55 north and not Illinois 9 east.
Like the priority list for most part.

Your #3 requires cost friendly bump via ideas already posted about a temporary south end zone structure that seats around 3k and offers premier buyers "feet on turf" .. look at costs and do this for 3 games minimum .. opener, homecoming, and family weekend. See what we can do to promote the heck out of it. Idea being to create something new and exciting.. and raise higher attendance to 16k level for big event games. This should be done setting ticket prices with goal of break even for add'l cost of the end zone seating .. just break even to ensure it will sell out.

This is how I think we raise the attendance bar from 13.4 to of 17k. Which could be what tips scales to entice donors to start stepping up more.

P.s. multi-puspose indoor facility should still be top priority .. that payback is long term. The tenporary end zone should breakeven or even small loss from new gate revenue.
Redbird Nation Rising ... Fans and donors need to get on board !!

MadBird
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Location: Madison, Wisconsin

Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:12 pm

I really should just not participate in discussing this topic, ISU to the Big 12, so will try to limit it to one negative post.

ISU will not get in the current Big 12 in my lifetime, and probably not in the next 25 years, at least.

Conference alignments are crazy and everchanging, so never say never ;)

ISU does not now and will not in the forseeable future "deliver" the Chicago media market.

The Big 12 now includes West Virginia, so they are not limiting themselves to the traditional "footprint".

Schools that are already FBS that would be ahead of ISU in any Big 12 expansion plans, in no particular order (assuming they'd be willing to move):

Houston
Memphis
Tulsa
SMU
Colorado State
New Mexico State
Troy
Tulane
Louisiana Tech
NIU (probably, they'd deliver Chicago at least as much as ISU and already have the stadium in place)
Wyoming

I'm willing to eat my crow in public if it ever becomes necessary.

TheTruth
Freshman
Posts: 52
Joined: Sat Jul 22, 2017 7:37 pm

Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:31 pm

MadBird wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:12 pm
I really should just not participate in discussing this topic, ISU to the Big 12, so will try to limit it to one negative post.
Not that negative of a post, just honest.
MadBird wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:12 pm
ISU will not get in the current Big 12 in my lifetime, and probably not in the next 25 years, at least.
Not without radically changing the mindset/personnel of its athletic dept and how they do business.
MadBird wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:12 pm
ISU does not now and will not in the forseeable future "deliver" the Chicago media market.
So true, the very idea that a state university like Illinois State markets itself as B-N's "hometown team" is appalling and speaks volumes as to the failings of this athletic dept. You can't expect Illinois State to penetrate that market with only 1-AA football.
MadBird wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:12 pm
Schools that are already FBS that would be ahead of ISU in any Big 12 expansion plans, in no particular order (assuming they'd be willing to move):

Houston
Memphis
Tulsa
SMU
Colorado State
New Mexico State
Troy
Tulane
Louisiana Tech
NIU (probably, they'd deliver Chicago at least as much as ISU and already have the stadium in place)
Wyoming
Realistically, the only ones on that list with a chance are Houston, Memphis, SMU and in a distant fourth.... Tulsa. Maybe throw Cincinnati in there too. But your point is made that 1-AA football has severely held Illinois State back. The fact that the state university of the 6th most populous state in the country has to play catch up to Colorado St, NMSU, Troy La Tech, NIU & Wyoming is embarrassing and shameful.
MadBird wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:12 pm
I'm willing to eat my crow in public if it ever becomes necessary.
I hope Illinois State is willing and able to hire people that will work to have Redbird athletics reach their potential. For the university's sake, I hope you do have to eat that crow someday.

bb fan
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Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:28 pm

Thinking about Coach Spack's quote of never being able to play for a national championship while watching UCF win and go undefeated...

TheTruth
Freshman
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Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:32 pm

bb fan wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:28 pm
Thinking about Coach Spack's quote of never being able to play for a national championship while watching UCF win and go undefeated...
So, will UCF drop down to 1-AA, or will they try and build their program to a position where an undefeated season gets the respect it deserves? With all due respect to Coach Spack, I don't believe any university should be sending the message that it's acceptable to pack it in just because the task at hand is difficult.

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Chi-bird
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Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:17 pm

I have to believe that if UCF didn't have games get cancelled due to hurricane Irma, and if they would have been more impressive in all of the wins....that they may have made it into the CFP. You have to figure Alabama isn't only beating USF, SMU, and Memphis by only a touchdown.

fourthandshort
Senior
Posts: 865
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Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:20 am

TheTruth wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:32 pm
bb fan wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:28 pm
Thinking about Coach Spack's quote of never being able to play for a national championship while watching UCF win and go undefeated...
So, will UCF drop down to 1-AA, or will they try and build their program to a position where an undefeated season gets the respect it deserves? With all due respect to Coach Spack, I don't believe any university should be sending the message that it's acceptable to pack it in just because the task at hand is difficult.
I think Spack was simply looking at the "bright side" of FCS when he said that .... you get a superior playoff format to FBS G5. You have to sell where/what you are to recruits ... and I'll take FCS over G5 for playoff format too. But I don't think this changes his ultimate unspoken desire to take ISU to FBS, even if G5 .. when we're ready. Nothing wrong with doing this in stages based on progress achieved, and then making gamble on the jump .. this means many more donors and seats in butts.
Redbird Nation Rising ... Fans and donors need to get on board !!

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