Missouri Valley Mountain West challenge

The place to talk Redbird Men's Basketball
Redbird Alum 2004
Sophomore
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Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:06 am

This could really make this challenge special.

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/spo ... y,amp.html

ISU FAN 1
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Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:27 am

Or, it could end the series, if they think they are too big for us, and explore another conference partner.

Just curious, is the revenue sharing arraignment in the WCC pretty standard across conferences? Or do others allow the victors to keep a disproportionate share of the spoils?

I would think Gonzaga's brand has and would continue to benefit from its dominance of the WCC. Becoming a 2nd or 3rd banana, or worse, in another conference has obvious downside.

Jsnhbe1Birds
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Posts: 416
Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:59 pm

Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:04 am

ISU FAN 1 wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:27 am
Or, it could end the series, if they think they are too big for us, and explore another conference partner.

Just curious, is the revenue sharing arraignment in the WCC pretty standard across conferences? Or do others allow the victors to keep a disproportionate share of the spoils?

I would think Gonzaga's brand has and would continue to benefit from its dominance of the WCC. Becoming a 2nd or 3rd banana, or worse, in another conference has obvious downside.

You're kidding right? Gonzaga would be first banana 95% of the time even playing better competition. It's not like they're joining the big east or acc.

Adunk33
Senior
Posts: 837
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:08 am

Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:05 am

Jsnhbe1Birds wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:04 am
ISU FAN 1 wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:27 am
Or, it could end the series, if they think they are too big for us, and explore another conference partner.

Just curious, is the revenue sharing arraignment in the WCC pretty standard across conferences? Or do others allow the victors to keep a disproportionate share of the spoils?

I would think Gonzaga's brand has and would continue to benefit from its dominance of the WCC. Becoming a 2nd or 3rd banana, or worse, in another conference has obvious downside.

You're kidding right? Gonzaga would be first banana 95% of the time even playing better competition. It's not like they're joining the big east or acc.
Comparable move to Wichita joining the American

V Boy
Sophomore
Posts: 328
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:05 pm

Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:18 am

Adunk33 wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:05 am
Jsnhbe1Birds wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:04 am
ISU FAN 1 wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:27 am
Or, it could end the series, if they think they are too big for us, and explore another conference partner.

Just curious, is the revenue sharing arraignment in the WCC pretty standard across conferences? Or do others allow the victors to keep a disproportionate share of the spoils?

I would think Gonzaga's brand has and would continue to benefit from its dominance of the WCC. Becoming a 2nd or 3rd banana, or worse, in another conference has obvious downside.

You're kidding right? Gonzaga would be first banana 95% of the time even playing better competition. It's not like they're joining the big east or acc.
Comparable move to Wichita joining the American
Can't believe people relate this story to whether the MVC-MWC Challenge will continue. That is not important.

This story is about the Mountain West commissioner GOING AFTER the Gonzagas of the world and the Missouri Valley commissioner LOSING the Gonzagas of the world.

The Mountain West commissioner sees what's going on with the Big East, American restructuring; sees how few non-Major7 conference at-larges there will be, and is fighting for his conference's life to lure in the biggest fish available to rival the American.

Meanwhile, in the Midwest, Doug Elgin is riding off into the sunset.....burying a once competitive league into virtual nothingness. Not expanding. Not trying to expand. Barely capable of keeping the league at 10 teams on schedule. Not competing at all for college basketball relevance. Only cares about appeasing his irrelevant base and bringing in more private money to keep a tugboat afloat in a sea of destroyers and aircraft carriers.

How he is still the leader of our league is mindboggling.

Jsnhbe1Birds
Sophomore
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Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:32 am

^exactly. The mvc needs to go after bigger dogs. Dayton, St. Louis, GCU, nmsu, vcu, Rhode Island. Yes it tanks travel but to remain relevant you have to make sacrifices. If that means Indiana state bows out then so be it. Add murray state or nku at that point. Those should be the only 6 options on the table and they each come with a travel partner. If you could get sll 6 then do it. Dayton will try for the big East and gcu will try for the MWC first. Hell I wouldn't care if the mvc added Gonzaga, byu, St. Mary's, and gcu. What I'm saying is go outside the box (way outside) because murray state and and whoever aren't getting the mvc where it needs to be.

Flagship08
Freshman
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Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:29 pm

Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:46 am

We couldn't even get St. Louis to join our league back when we were a multi-bid league with Wichita State and Creighton. We certainly won't be to get the Dayton's and Butler's of the world now (or ever). Let's stop pretending like this type of expansion was ever realistic. I can't blame Doug Elgin on this one, his hands were tied.

Gonzaga would be in the Big East if it weren't located in the Northwest. They are an anomaly based on geographic location.

Jsnhbe1Birds
Sophomore
Posts: 416
Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:59 pm

Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:13 pm

So pay them to come. Buy them out. Do whatever it takes. Don't just sit looking at the trash pile.

ISU FAN 1
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Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:21 pm

Adunk33 wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:05 am
Jsnhbe1Birds wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:04 am
ISU FAN 1 wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:27 am
Or, it could end the series, if they think they are too big for us, and explore another conference partner.

Just curious, is the revenue sharing arraignment in the WCC pretty standard across conferences? Or do others allow the victors to keep a disproportionate share of the spoils?

I would think Gonzaga's brand has and would continue to benefit from its dominance of the WCC. Becoming a 2nd or 3rd banana, or worse, in another conference has obvious downside.

You're kidding right? Gonzaga would be first banana 95% of the time even playing better competition. It's not like they're joining the big east or acc.
Comparable move to Wichita joining the American
Exactly, and they are already 2nd or 3rd banana status. That’s the allure of the MVC now. Top team is up for grabs with Wichita and Creighton gone. Time to capitalize and dominate. So far, it’s Loyola that’s grabbed that early lead.

If we want to move up in the conference power world, the MVC needs new leadership. We can’t even attract OVC level teams.

V Boy
Sophomore
Posts: 328
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:05 pm

Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:54 pm

ISU FAN 1 wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:21 pm
Adunk33 wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:05 am
Jsnhbe1Birds wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:04 am



You're kidding right? Gonzaga would be first banana 95% of the time even playing better competition. It's not like they're joining the big east or acc.
Comparable move to Wichita joining the American
Exactly, and they are already 2nd or 3rd banana status. That’s the allure of the MVC now. Top team is up for grabs with Wichita and Creighton gone. Time to capitalize and dominate. So far, it’s Loyola that’s grabbed that early lead.

If we want to move up in the conference power world, the MVC needs new leadership. We can’t even attract OVC level teams.
This is exactly right. Last year I talked about ISU's window to dominate being the next 5 years (after Wichita is gone, basketball AND football). Off to a pretty weak start. Not year potentially looks promising.

More broadly in basketball, it would make a whole lot of sense if the top teams in the Mountain West and West Coast combined AND the top teams in the Missouri Valley and Atlantic Ten combined.

Picture leagues that looked like this:

Gonzaga
St. Mary's
BYU
UNLV
New Mexico
Boise St.
San Diego St.
Nevada
Colorado St.
Fresno St.
Air Force

AND

Dayton
Rhode Island
Davidson
St. Joe's
VCU
GW
UMass
Illinois St.
S. Illinois
Saint Louis
Loyola
Valpo

Footprint of those leagues would be huge, but the level of competition would definitely be higher. You could have east and west divisions to make scheduling easier.

I'm sure Elgin is not even thinking about this kind of stuff.

Jsnhbe1Birds
Sophomore
Posts: 416
Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:59 pm

Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:56 pm

The problem is I'm not sure you can kick teams out. To create a conference everyone would have to leave their league.

BallwinBird2012
Freshman
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Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:47 am

Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:05 pm

Flagship08 wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:46 am
We couldn't even get St. Louis to join our league back when we were a multi-bid league with Wichita State and Creighton. We certainly won't be to get the Dayton's and Butler's of the world now (or ever). Let's stop pretending like this type of expansion was ever realistic. I can't blame Doug Elgin on this one, his hands were tied.

Gonzaga would be in the Big East if it weren't located in the Northwest. They are an anomaly based on geographic location.
This. It always makes me laugh when posters get pissed at the MVC higher ups for not going out and getting teams from BETTER conferences with more stability, more money, and more opportunities to dance to take a demotion to come to this conference...Please name ONE example of a school that left a more powerful/prestigious league to join a less powerful/prestigious league. THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN! Fun to talk about? Sure. Realistic? In no way.

I wouldn't necessarily completely let Elgin off the hook. I can get behind the idea that the league should focus on expansion, but it's going to be a team or teams that are currently in a lesser conference than the MVC, but that project as schools that could eventually improve the league over time. I don't see any quick, overnight fixes.

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SoCalRedbird
Freshman
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Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:22 pm

Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:18 pm

The MVC needs to ditch the regional focus of the conference. If not, the Valley will continue to hemorrhage all its quality and turn into the Midwest equivalent of the MEAC.

Rutgers and Maryland to the B1G, Gonzaga to the MWC, the entire AAC? Come on, Doug! Spot the trend and act on it!

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bb fan
Sophomore
Posts: 440
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:44 am

Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:28 pm

Yeah, much of the B10 is just lovin' where the conference tourney this year...
https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/c ... 373103002/

I do wonder if these national conferences will hold up for the long run, Yeah that cable TV money is big, but I think these conferences are losing their identity, and the travel time and cost is taking it's toll. And then you have conference tourneys hundreds and hundreds of miles away from some member schools.

Birdswin
Sophomore
Posts: 214
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:58 pm

Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:32 pm

The Valley is no where near the conference it was when ISU joined. It is a shell of itself. The Birds need to dominate and leave - some how, some way. The Valley is NOT going to expand upward - only laterally at best, most likely downward.

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crazzymark
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Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:06 pm

Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:39 pm

Birdswin wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:32 pm
The Valley is no where near the conference it was when ISU joined. It is a shell of itself. The Birds need to dominate and leave - some how, some way. The Valley is NOT going to expand upward - only laterally at best, most likely downward.
:clap: :clap: :clap:

CaliRdBrd
Sophomore
Posts: 493
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:24 pm

Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:52 pm

V Boy wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:18 am
Adunk33 wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:05 am
Jsnhbe1Birds wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:04 am



You're kidding right? Gonzaga would be first banana 95% of the time even playing better competition. It's not like they're joining the big east or acc.
Comparable move to Wichita joining the American
Can't believe people relate this story to whether the MVC-MWC Challenge will continue. That is not important.

This story is about the Mountain West commissioner GOING AFTER the Gonzagas of the world and the Missouri Valley commissioner LOSING the Gonzagas of the world.

The Mountain West commissioner sees what's going on with the Big East, American restructuring; sees how few non-Major7 conference at-larges there will be, and is fighting for his conference's life to lure in the biggest fish available to rival the American.

Meanwhile, in the Midwest, Doug Elgin is riding off into the sunset.....burying a once competitive league into virtual nothingness. Not expanding. Not trying to expand. Barely capable of keeping the league at 10 teams on schedule. Not competing at all for college basketball relevance. Only cares about appeasing his irrelevant base and bringing in more private money to keep a tugboat afloat in a sea of destroyers and aircraft carriers.

How he is still the leader of our league is mindboggling.
Yep. Pretty much.

CaliRdBrd
Sophomore
Posts: 493
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:24 pm

Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:56 pm

Birdswin wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:32 pm
The Valley is no where near the conference it was when ISU joined. It is a shell of itself. The Birds need to dominate and leave - some how, some way. The Valley is NOT going to expand upward - only laterally at best, most likely downward.
First we need to quit acting like we can dominate just by saying so. If we played half as good as we all thought we could play we’d be 16-2 in conference.
Instead this conference is a sniff above the SWAC, IMO, and the Redbirds are barely over .500.
I feel like I’m working for a buggy whip company with a delusional boss who sees the future as being nothing but rainbows.

ISU FAN 1
Senior
Posts: 1228
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:04 pm

Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:16 pm

bb fan wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:28 pm
Yeah, much of the B10 is just lovin' where the conference tourney this year...
https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/c ... 373103002/

I do wonder if these national conferences will hold up for the long run, Yeah that cable TV money is big, but I think these conferences are losing their identity, and the travel time and cost is taking it's toll. And then you have conference tourneys hundreds and hundreds of miles away from some member schools.
And the Illini’s travel was made even more exhausting by staying out east after playing Rutgers. Poor Brad Underwood has to lug those heavy bags full of a week’s clothes all the way back to Champaign, and wait 2 weeks for to not get his CIT invitation.

Did see B1G commish apologize for this year’s tourney location before it even started.
Last edited by ISU FAN 1 on Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Metamoron
Freshman
Posts: 165
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:31 pm

Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:17 pm

Jsnhbe1Birds wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:56 pm
The problem is I'm not sure you can kick teams out. To create a conference everyone would have to leave their league.
I think the only thing is that the league could make a commitment to be a football/basketball league. Then teams that are not into football could choose to leave.

That is the closest the conference could get to kick people out.

Unfortunately I think that is the biggest problem the valley faces.

Are they a football/ basketball/ etc league or is it a basketball/soccer/baseball league that allows SIU-E and Dallas Baptist to be part of the conference when it suits

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